On 22 Nov 2004 13:13:52 GMT, "Toad The Dead Vegan"
Post by Toad The Dead Vegan Post by Dave Post by Toad The Dead Vegan Post by Dave
No, because you are too ignorant to hear that those are 4 of the best
rock and roll albums ever made. No one is saying you have to like the
Rolling Stones. But to comment on music, you just need to have some
musical intelligence to realize great music when you hear it. I hate
Eminem, but I know that he is a great rap artist.
That makes no sense to me. Not the part where you hate M & M, but the part
where you say he's a "great rap artist".
There are no great rap artists, and if there were, he wouldn't be one of
This is the point I was trying to make with the Muffin man. Just
because you don't like it, doesn't mean it sucks. There is a way you
can appreciate all kinds of music but not necessarily like that music
yourself. I don't like Eminem, but I've listened to enough rap to know
he a talented lyricist and rapper. Get the difference yet?
No, I don't. All rap sucks and there are no great rap artists. M & M is a
very lucky young man; bamboozling the world with his absurd babblings.
Post by Dave Post by Toad The Dead Vegan Post by Dave
I actually don't
like the Beach Boys, but I would admit that Pet Sounds is one of the
best albums ever made.
This makes less sense. You don't like a band, but one of their albums is
one of the best ever made. If their album is so great, how come you don't
like the band that made it? What's wrong with you?
There is nothing wrong with me. I don't like many things about the
Beach Boys so I don't listen to them. I am wise enough to know when I
hear a great work of art, like Pet Sounds. The production, the vocals,
the music are wonderfully put together. Again, I just don't like the
Beach Boys sound but I can appreciate the art of it. What is so weird
about that?? I hated the movie Schindler's List, but of course I can
appreciate that it is a briliant work of film.
That makes no sense to me. If I hate a movie, it sucks. It isn't great if
I don't like it, because "great" depends on the listener or the viewer.
Not to mention I love the Beach Boys, and Schindlers List was pretty good,
but not great.
Post by Dave Post by Toad The Dead Vegan
Only bands I like can have great albums. Bands I don't like have lousy
albums; otherwise I would like them.
This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. So by this explanation,
because the Iron Muffin doesn't like the Stones, then Let it Bleed
must be a bad album. Sorry, that just doesn't work in the realm of
It works for him. He doesn't think its great, therefore it isn't. You do
think its great, therefore it is.
There are no answers to these questions; there are only opinions. There is
no objective measurement of the greatness of music. There are no
standards, only a myriad of individual opinions. Its a chaotic and
unexplainable phenomenon, but there it is.
Post by Dave Post by Toad The Dead Vegan Post by Dave
Are you starting to get it yet??
I don't think I am.
Post by Dave
And telling me
to go fuck myself was very mature of you. You sounded like a dumb
teenager with that response. I guess I can see why you don't
appreciate the Stones.
Yeah, everyone knows all rude people love the Stones. He's going against
Here's the deal (for me anyway): If you like a band, they are a great band.
If you don't, they suck.
That is so dumb. If you don't like a band, that doesn't mean they
Yes, it means they suck if I don't like them. You saying they are great
isn't going to change my opinion. A band may be great in your mind, but
that's only your mind or maybe the minds of millions of others as well.
That doesn't mean its true, because there is no truth in these discussions.
Post by Dave
That would mean that the Beach Boys suck because I don't like
them. Of course that is not true.
It should be for you.
You remind me of some employees I have who always ask for a black and white
answer for every situation. I have to tell them there are no black and
white answers; there are gray areas. There are individual situations that
require individual decisions.
Music is similar; there are no objective criteria for determining greatness.
Record sales? We all know that isn't a valid measure. Critics' reviews?
Just one man's opinion. Conventional wisdom? No thanks, my opinion is as
valid as anyone else's.
I addressed this in another post in the thread, and I again have to
disagree, at least in part. First, there are criteria for determining
greatness in some areas. For example, when a baseball player during
his career hits over 700 home runs, averages over .330, and wins a
bunch of championships (Babe Ruth), those stats are pretty good
evidence of greatness. It's much more difficult, I'll admit, to
present objective criteria of greatness in art. But that doesn't mean
it can't be done, and greatness in art isnt' always solely in the eyes
of the beholder.
I know you've dismissed critical opinion in your post, and I agree
that no individual opinion is sufficient to establish greatness. On
the other hand, if a large number of respected critics over a long
period of time widely judge an artist or a work of art to be great,
then it probably is. Likewise , the price of a work of art or the
number of copies that are sold aren't alone sufficient proof of
greatness. But mass opinion shouldn't be dismissed out of hand,
either. If you've got a critically acclaimed musical recording that
millions of people buy, I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that
it's not great music. Another factor that can be considered in
determining greatness in art is whether it stands the test of time. If
people are still watching, listening to, talking about and purchasing
a work of art many years after it was produced, I would feel confident
in calling it great art. I'm sure there are other factors I haven't
thought of that could be considered in establishing the greatness of
art or an artist (for instance, someone would probably have to have a
body of great work to be judged a great artist).
Using these standards, it then becomes pretty easy to arrive at the
conclusion that Beethoven, Coltrane, Miles Davis, Sinatra,
Shakespeare, Van Gogh, etc, were great artists who produced great
works of art. So there is some black and white even in a world
dominated by gray. Now, all this is not to say that everybody has to
LIKE every great artist or work of art, or that there's something
wrong with you if you don't appreciate or enjoy a particular piece of
great art,. But, in my opinion at least, you also don't have to like
it in order to recognize its greatness. Saying that because I don't
like it, it can't be great is something of a copout. Sometimes the
majority does have to rule.