Discussion:
The Sopranos, Final Season
(too old to reply)
Andrew
2009-02-10 02:01:27 UTC
Permalink
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix).
Pretty impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right
near the top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that
list too).

Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me
some time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but
I think I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.


And, it sorta sucks after having spent the last year or so checking out
a new episode a couple of times a week with the ol' lady to now not have
any more to go through. Now what? Start over with season 1 again (I have
a feeling this show would actually reveal quite a bit more upon a second
viewing)? What other shows should I Netflix?
Dave Kelly
2009-02-10 02:06:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
What other shows should I Netflix?
COPS season 8 ( especially disc 4 )
You'll see the takedown of a current RMGD member.
Nice.
frndthdevl
2009-02-10 02:09:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
What other shows should I Netflix?
Dexter
Weeds
Entourage
Big Love
mr.rapidan
2009-02-10 02:22:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by frndthdevl
Post by Andrew
What other shows should I Netflix?
Dexter
Weeds
Entourage
Big Love
Six Feet Under.
The Wire.
Edwin Hurwitz
2009-02-10 05:48:24 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by mr.rapidan
Post by frndthdevl
Post by Andrew
What other shows should I Netflix?
Dexter
Weeds
Entourage
Big Love
Six Feet Under.
The Wire.
Definitely The Wire. And for a low rent version of the Sopranos, try
Brotherhood. If you know anything about the Bulger Bros, it will speak
to you.

Six Feet Under is also really good.
I was bummed they cancelled Deadwood and Rome so quickly.

Edwin
--
If you want to make peace, you don't talk to your friends. You talk to your
enemies.
-Moshe Dayan
ACK islander
2009-02-10 15:52:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
What other shows should I Netflix?
Dexter--YES
Weeds--ok
Entourage--blah
Big Love--blah
Six Feet Under--YES
The Wire--YES YES YES
Andrew
2009-02-10 02:24:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by frndthdevl
Post by Andrew
What other shows should I Netflix?
Dexter
Hmmm. Never heard of it. Is it good?
Post by frndthdevl
Weeds
Meh. We're in the middle of season three there and I'm still not sure I
like it much. That lead actress pot-dealer lady bugs the living shit out
of me.
Post by frndthdevl
Entourage
Heh. Sex in the City for dudes. I've given that one a try, but I think
I'm done with it. Just terrible.
Post by frndthdevl
Big Love
Yeah, I might try this out next.
mr.rapidan
2009-02-10 02:32:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by frndthdevl
Post by Andrew
What other shows should I Netflix?
Dexter
Hmmm. Never heard of it. Is it good?
Post by frndthdevl
Weeds
Meh. We're in the middle of season three there and I'm still not sure I
like it much. That lead actress pot-dealer lady bugs the living shit out
of me.
Post by frndthdevl
Entourage
Heh. Sex in the City for dudes. I've given that one a try, but I think
I'm done with it. Just terrible.
Post by frndthdevl
Big Love
Yeah, I might try this out next.
Thinking about it, Six Feet Under is really, really good. A little
inconsistent, over the years. But much richer, in a way, than The
Sopranos.
b***@aaool.com
2009-02-11 03:28:41 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 18:32:46 -0800 (PST), "mr.rapidan"
Post by mr.rapidan
Post by Andrew
Post by frndthdevl
Post by Andrew
What other shows should I Netflix?
Dexter
Hmmm. Never heard of it. Is it good?
Post by frndthdevl
Weeds
Meh. We're in the middle of season three there and I'm still not sure I
like it much. That lead actress pot-dealer lady bugs the living shit out
of me.
Post by frndthdevl
Entourage
Heh. Sex in the City for dudes. I've given that one a try, but I think
I'm done with it. Just terrible.
Post by frndthdevl
Big Love
Yeah, I might try this out next.
Thinking about it, Six Feet Under is really, really good. A little
inconsistent, over the years. But much richer, in a way, than The
Sopranos.
A great series.
Brad Greer
2009-02-10 13:49:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by frndthdevl
Post by Andrew
What other shows should I Netflix?
Dexter
Hmmm. Never heard of it. Is it good?
Interesting concept - a serial killer who works as a blood spatter
expert for the cops and only kills people who manage to escape the law
(through technicalities or whatever).
p***@my-deja.com
2009-02-10 17:48:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by frndthdevl
Post by Andrew
What other shows should I Netflix?
Dexter
Weeds
Entourage
Big Love
Brotherhood (SHO)
3janemariefrancetessierashpool
2009-02-10 02:27:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
And, it sorta sucks after having spent the last year or so checking out
a new episode a couple of times a week with the ol' lady to now not have
any more to go through. Now what? Start over with season 1 again (I have
a feeling this show would actually reveal quite a bit more upon a second
viewing)? What other shows should I Netflix?
I've found virtually all Sopranos episodes stand up to repeated
viewings, much like a LeCarre or O'Brian book is often better the
second or even third time around. When you start with previous
knowledge of the basic plot/relationships/context, you get to dwell on
the nuance and Sopranos has plenty of that. I appreciate
recommendations for other shows, I just have to not compare them to
Tony & Co.
mr.rapidan
2009-02-10 02:29:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by 3janemariefrancetessierashpool
Post by Andrew
And, it sorta sucks after having spent the last year or so checking out
a new episode a couple of times a week with the ol' lady to now not have
any more to go through. Now what? Start over with season 1 again (I have
a feeling this show would actually reveal quite a bit more upon a second
viewing)? What other shows should I Netflix?
I've found virtually all Sopranos episodes stand up to repeated
viewings, much like a LeCarre or O'Brian book is often better the
second or even third time around.  When you start with previous
knowledge of the basic plot/relationships/context, you get to dwell on
the nuance and Sopranos has plenty of that.  I appreciate
recommendations for other shows, I just have to not compare them to
Tony & Co.
Yeah, I'll second that, I saw most of the episodes as they came out on
HBO. I purchased the DVDs and am really enjoying going through them
again.
Bruce Farley
2009-02-10 02:34:44 UTC
Permalink
The Corner.
And the show that came after it, The Wire.
Very good shows, be sure to watch in order.
I went back and wached The Wire a second time and will probably do it a
third time. I also listened to all of the extra audio tracks. But watch
the show before the extra audio.
Deadwood. Too bad it ended when it did, could have gone on a lot longer.
Weeds
Bruce
Post by Andrew
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix).
Pretty impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right
near the top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that
list too).
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me
some time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but
I think I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
And, it sorta sucks after having spent the last year or so checking out
a new episode a couple of times a week with the ol' lady to now not have
any more to go through. Now what? Start over with season 1 again (I have
a feeling this show would actually reveal quite a bit more upon a second
viewing)? What other shows should I Netflix?
Kirk McElhearn
2009-02-10 10:52:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Farley
Deadwood. Too bad it ended when it did, could have gone on a lot longer.
Yes, a truly great show, one of the rare shows with such attention to
language (not just swearing); some of the best dialogue ever on TV.

Kirk
--
Read my blog, Kirkville
http://www.mcelhearn.com
octoad
2009-02-10 02:47:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix). Pretty
impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right near the
top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that list too).
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me some
time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but I think
I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
I saw it as just another day in the life; it all continues. Sure, he could
have been shot and killed, or shot and wounded, or the guy was harmless and
Tony just keeps rollin' on. I go with one of the latter two explanations.

I'd hoped all that season for Meadow to step up and become the Mafia
Princess Godmother, but I guess that was too crazy.
Post by Andrew
And, it sorta sucks after having spent the last year or so checking out a
new episode a couple of times a week with the ol' lady to now not have any
more to go through. Now what? Start over with season 1 again (I have a
feeling this show would actually reveal quite a bit more upon a second
viewing)? What other shows should I Netflix?
Defintely watch the Sopranos from the begining again. You catch so much you
missed the first time, like hearing names that later crop up as characters
and understanding just who is who. The first run through I had trouble
with all the Italian names and who was captain of what crew in which family.
Its also amusing knowing what comes ahead and seeing the ground get laid for
those events.

As for other shows, my Netflix faves are:

1) Sopranos
2) Six Feet Under
3) Deadwood
4) Big Love
5) Weeds--I happen to love the mom, although Andy is my favorite character.
Wait til you see season four.............

O
Andrew
2009-02-10 02:52:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by octoad
Post by Andrew
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix). Pretty
impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right near the
top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that list too).
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me some
time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but I think
I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
I saw it as just another day in the life; it all continues. Sure, he could
have been shot and killed, or shot and wounded, or the guy was harmless and
Tony just keeps rollin' on. I go with one of the latter two explanations.
While it is certainly open to interpretation, I'm pretty comfortable
with the fact that Tony got whacked.

You probably never even hear it coming.
3janemariefrancetessierashpool
2009-02-10 03:42:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Andrew
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix). Pretty
impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right near the
top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that list too).
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me some
time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but I think
I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
I saw it as just another day in the life; it all continues.  Sure, he could
have been shot and killed, or shot and wounded, or the guy was harmless and
Tony just keeps rollin' on.  I go with one of the latter two explanations.
While it is certainly open to interpretation, I'm pretty comfortable
with the fact that Tony got whacked.
You probably never even hear it coming.
What makes you say that? It honestly never occured to me that he got
whacked in the end so I'm curious what the "clues" were. At the end
wasn't he sitting in one room cradling a gun and the rest of the
family was sitting right next door (I could have that wrong, it's been
a while)? So you think someone from the Phil/Johnny Sac Brooklyn gang
kicked the door in and whacked Tony (and the rest of the family)?
octoad
2009-02-10 03:50:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Andrew
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix). Pretty
impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right near the
top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that list too).
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me some
time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but I think
I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
I saw it as just another day in the life; it all continues. Sure, he
could
have been shot and killed, or shot and wounded, or the guy was harmless and
Tony just keeps rollin' on. I go with one of the latter two
explanations.
While it is certainly open to interpretation, I'm pretty comfortable
with the fact that Tony got whacked.
You probably never even hear it coming.
What makes you say that? It honestly never occured to me that he got
whacked in the end so I'm curious what the "clues" were. At the end
wasn't he sitting in one room cradling a gun and the rest of the
family was sitting right next door (I could have that wrong, it's been
a while)? So you think someone from the Phil/Johnny Sac Brooklyn gang
kicked the door in and whacked Tony (and the rest of the family)?

***************************************************************

Tony and immediate family were sitting in a diner when a mysterious man with
a gun walked in..........

They were playing that Journey song and everything faded to black without
warning.

O
frndthdevl
2009-02-10 04:01:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by octoad
Tony and immediate family were sitting in a diner when a mysterious man with
a gun walked in..........
Yeah,there was the shady dude who walked into the bathroom, but I do
not recall a gun in his hand or anyone elses. Otherwise the ending
would not have been so ambiguous.
Andrew
2009-02-10 04:06:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by 3janemariefrancetessierashpool
Post by Andrew
Post by octoad
Post by Andrew
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix). Pretty
impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right near the
top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that list too).
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me some
time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but I think
I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
I saw it as just another day in the life; it all continues. Sure, he could
have been shot and killed, or shot and wounded, or the guy was harmless and
Tony just keeps rollin' on. I go with one of the latter two explanations.
While it is certainly open to interpretation, I'm pretty comfortable
with the fact that Tony got whacked.
You probably never even hear it coming.
What makes you say that? It honestly never occured to me that he got
whacked in the end so I'm curious what the "clues" were. At the end
wasn't he sitting in one room cradling a gun and the rest of the
family was sitting right next door (I could have that wrong, it's been
a while)? So you think someone from the Phil/Johnny Sac Brooklyn gang
kicked the door in and whacked Tony (and the rest of the family)?
Nah. That scene you describe is similar I suppose to the scene at the
end of the 2nd to last episode. The final episode ends with Tony, his
wife and son sitting at a table at a diner. The suspicious character is
a guy that was sitting at the counter in the diner who had been staring
at Tony, who was oblivious while talking to family/reading the menu. He
walks past Tony into the bathroom (reminiscent of Godfather), and the
camera follows him the whole way showing a clear line from the door of
the bathroom to Tony's seat in the booth. Meanwhile his daughter is out
on the street trying (pretty unsuccessfully) to parallel park her car.
As soon as she (apparently) enters the front door of the restaurant, the
scene goes black, the music (Journey song, Don't Stop Believin') ends
and there are about 20 seconds of black screen before the credit roll.

I think the abrupt black screen is clue enough, but one of the main
themes touched on through the whole final season is how for Tony it will
either end with a violent death or a prison sentence (fwiw, one of the
main plot points of the finale is that a trial looms as well). And there
was one key scene at the start of the final season, where he was sitting
with his brother-in-law on a boat on a lake, talking about death,
something about how "you probably never see it coming". This was
repeated at least a couple of times throughout the year.

And, I just don't believe the director would have built up this
climactic final scene just to have it be portrayed as "just another
day". There had to be a payoff. I believe there was.
SplinteredSunlight
2009-02-10 15:50:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Andrew
Post by Andrew
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix). Pretty
impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right near the
top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that list too).
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me some
time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but I think
I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
I saw it as just another day in the life; it all continues.  Sure, he could
have been shot and killed, or shot and wounded, or the guy was harmless and
Tony just keeps rollin' on.  I go with one of the latter two explanations.
While it is certainly open to interpretation, I'm pretty comfortable
with the fact that Tony got whacked.
You probably never even hear it coming.
What makes you say that?  It honestly never occured to me that he got
whacked in the end so I'm curious what the "clues" were.  At the end
wasn't he sitting in one room cradling a gun and the rest of the
family was sitting right next door (I could have that wrong, it's been
a while)?  So you think someone from the Phil/Johnny Sac Brooklyn gang
kicked the door in and whacked Tony (and the rest of the family)?
Nah. That scene you describe is similar I suppose to the scene at the
end of the 2nd to last episode. The final episode ends with Tony, his
wife and son sitting at a table at a diner. The suspicious character is
a guy that was sitting at the counter in the diner who had been staring
at Tony, who was oblivious while talking to family/reading the menu. He
walks past Tony into the bathroom (reminiscent of Godfather), and the
camera follows him the whole way showing a clear line from the door of
the bathroom to Tony's seat in the booth. Meanwhile his daughter is out
on the street trying (pretty unsuccessfully) to parallel park her car.
As soon as she (apparently) enters the front door of the restaurant, the
scene goes black, the music (Journey song, Don't Stop Believin') ends
and there are about 20 seconds of black screen before the credit roll.
I think the abrupt black screen is clue enough, but one of the main
themes touched on through the whole final season is how for Tony it will
either end with a violent death or a prison sentence (fwiw, one of the
main plot points of the finale is that a trial looms as well). And there
was one key scene at the start of the final season, where he was sitting
with his brother-in-law on a boat on a lake, talking about death,
something about how "you probably never see it coming". This was
repeated at least a couple of times throughout the year.
And, I just don't believe the director would have built up this
climactic final scene just to have it be portrayed as "just another
day". There had to be a payoff. I believe there was.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I do believe that Andrew is 100% correct in his assessment. Tony got a
lead injection, end of story.
j***@johndoherty.com
2009-02-10 18:24:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Andrew
Post by Andrew
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix). Pretty
impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right near the
top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that list too).
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me some
time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but I think
I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
I saw it as just another day in the life; it all continues.  Sure, he could
have been shot and killed, or shot and wounded, or the guy was harmless and
Tony just keeps rollin' on.  I go with one of the latter two explanations.
While it is certainly open to interpretation, I'm pretty comfortable
with the fact that Tony got whacked.
You probably never even hear it coming.
What makes you say that?  It honestly never occured to me that he got
whacked in the end so I'm curious what the "clues" were.  At the end
wasn't he sitting in one room cradling a gun and the rest of the
family was sitting right next door (I could have that wrong, it's been
a while)?  So you think someone from the Phil/Johnny Sac Brooklyn gang
kicked the door in and whacked Tony (and the rest of the family)?
Nah. That scene you describe is similar I suppose to the scene at the
end of the 2nd to last episode. The final episode ends with Tony, his
wife and son sitting at a table at a diner. The suspicious character is
a guy that was sitting at the counter in the diner who had been staring
at Tony, who was oblivious while talking to family/reading the menu. He
walks past Tony into the bathroom (reminiscent of Godfather), and the
camera follows him the whole way showing a clear line from the door of
the bathroom to Tony's seat in the booth. Meanwhile his daughter is out
on the street trying (pretty unsuccessfully) to parallel park her car.
As soon as she (apparently) enters the front door of the restaurant, the
scene goes black, the music (Journey song, Don't Stop Believin') ends
and there are about 20 seconds of black screen before the credit roll.
I think the abrupt black screen is clue enough, but one of the main
themes touched on through the whole final season is how for Tony it will
either end with a violent death or a prison sentence (fwiw, one of the
main plot points of the finale is that a trial looms as well). And there
was one key scene at the start of the final season, where he was sitting
with his brother-in-law on a boat on a lake, talking about death,
something about how "you probably never see it coming". This was
repeated at least a couple of times throughout the year.
And, I just don't believe the director would have built up this
climactic final scene just to have it be portrayed as "just another
day". There had to be a payoff. I believe there was.
Andrew, I have to disagree, and Sopranos creator David Chase went on
record that Tony did not die in that scene.

from The Daily News 10/23/07:

---------

So were those onion rings Tony's last meal?

Chase says that Tony did not get whacked, as many fans speculated when
their screens faded to black following the restaurant scene that ended
the storied TV series (and which Hillary Clinton later parodied in a
campaign ad).

In "The Sopranos: The Complete Book," Chase berates fans for obsessing
over the ending.

"There WAS a war going on that week, and attempted terror attacks in
London," Chase says. "But these people were talking about onion
rings."

Worse yet was fans' bloodlust for the often sympathetic mob honcho
whose travails they'd devoted themselves to over eight seasons.

Tony, Chase says, "had been people's alter ego. They had gleefully
watched him rob, kill, pillage, lie and cheat. They had cheered him
on. And then, all of a sudden, they wanted to see him punished for all
that. They wanted 'justice'...

"The pathetic thing - to me - was how much they wanted HIS blood,
after cheering him on for eight years."

end quote-------

But as for your opinion, he certainly put enough clues in there to
lead you to think otherwise. The very last scene was humorous in the
amount of suspects that actually explicitly referred to other Sopranos
eps: "Members Only" jacket guy, "Unidentified Black Males", etc. It
was like a game of Clue: will it be Colonel Mustard with the
candlestick in the library?

Chase repeatedly said he did not want to do the standard arc of a
mobster's life, like Jimmy Cagney in "Public Enemy" "coming home to
Ma" in a box. Part of his point was that mob life is arbitrary, and
very evil people often get away with it for years, or forever. In
fact, it makes you a better mobster ("a good earner") to be a total
psycho like Ralph Cifaretta.
Andrew
2009-02-10 18:40:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
Post by Andrew
Post by 3janemariefrancetessierashpool
Post by Andrew
Post by octoad
Post by Andrew
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix). Pretty
impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right near the
top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that list too).
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me some
time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but I think
I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
I saw it as just another day in the life; it all continues. Sure, he could
have been shot and killed, or shot and wounded, or the guy was harmless and
Tony just keeps rollin' on. I go with one of the latter two explanations.
While it is certainly open to interpretation, I'm pretty comfortable
with the fact that Tony got whacked.
You probably never even hear it coming.
What makes you say that? It honestly never occured to me that he got
whacked in the end so I'm curious what the "clues" were. At the end
wasn't he sitting in one room cradling a gun and the rest of the
family was sitting right next door (I could have that wrong, it's been
a while)? So you think someone from the Phil/Johnny Sac Brooklyn gang
kicked the door in and whacked Tony (and the rest of the family)?
Nah. That scene you describe is similar I suppose to the scene at the
end of the 2nd to last episode. The final episode ends with Tony, his
wife and son sitting at a table at a diner. The suspicious character is
a guy that was sitting at the counter in the diner who had been staring
at Tony, who was oblivious while talking to family/reading the menu. He
walks past Tony into the bathroom (reminiscent of Godfather), and the
camera follows him the whole way showing a clear line from the door of
the bathroom to Tony's seat in the booth. Meanwhile his daughter is out
on the street trying (pretty unsuccessfully) to parallel park her car.
As soon as she (apparently) enters the front door of the restaurant, the
scene goes black, the music (Journey song, Don't Stop Believin') ends
and there are about 20 seconds of black screen before the credit roll.
I think the abrupt black screen is clue enough, but one of the main
themes touched on through the whole final season is how for Tony it will
either end with a violent death or a prison sentence (fwiw, one of the
main plot points of the finale is that a trial looms as well). And there
was one key scene at the start of the final season, where he was sitting
with his brother-in-law on a boat on a lake, talking about death,
something about how "you probably never see it coming". This was
repeated at least a couple of times throughout the year.
And, I just don't believe the director would have built up this
climactic final scene just to have it be portrayed as "just another
day". There had to be a payoff. I believe there was.
Andrew, I have to disagree, and Sopranos creator David Chase went on
record that Tony did not die in that scene.
---------
So were those onion rings Tony's last meal?
Chase says that Tony did not get whacked, as many fans speculated when
their screens faded to black following the restaurant scene that ended
the storied TV series (and which Hillary Clinton later parodied in a
campaign ad).
In "The Sopranos: The Complete Book," Chase berates fans for obsessing
over the ending.
"There WAS a war going on that week, and attempted terror attacks in
London," Chase says. "But these people were talking about onion
rings."
Worse yet was fans' bloodlust for the often sympathetic mob honcho
whose travails they'd devoted themselves to over eight seasons.
Tony, Chase says, "had been people's alter ego. They had gleefully
watched him rob, kill, pillage, lie and cheat. They had cheered him
on. And then, all of a sudden, they wanted to see him punished for all
that. They wanted 'justice'...
"The pathetic thing - to me - was how much they wanted HIS blood,
after cheering him on for eight years."
end quote-------
Wait. He never says that Tony did not get killed. What he says (more or
less) is that he despised those fans that wanted to see Tony get his
brains blown out. So he didn't show them that.

I've actually read a bit online this morning about this topic, and there
are other much more clear quotes from Chase that indicate that Tony got
killed.

"“Chase: There are no esoteric clues in there. No Da Vinci Code.
Everything that pertains to that episode was in that episode. And it was
in the episode before that and the one before that and seasons before
this one and so on. There had been indications of what the end is like.
Remember when Jerry Torciano was killed? Silvio was not aware that the
gun had been fired until after Jerry was on his way down to the floor.
That’s the way things happen: It’s already going on by the time you even
notice it.”

And again, being interviewed by Richard Belzer on Air America:

Richard Belzer: “I was working with Steve Schirripa recently, we were
judging “Last Coming Standing” for NBC and we were talking about a lot
of things and he was saying he heard all of these theories for the show
that had nothing to do with your intention and wasn’t anything the
actors thought, like little hints along the way, like a word, like when
Tony and Steve are on the boat at the lake and they say “‘you never know
its gonna happen” or “you never know its gonna hit you”

David Chase: “That was part of the ending.”

Richard Belzer: “Oh, it was? see, what do I know? Were there other
things in previous episodes that were hints towards it?”

David Chase: “There was that and there was a shooting which Silvio was a
witness, well he wasn’t a witness, he was eating dinner with a couple of
hookers and with some other guy and there was some visual stuff that
went on there which sort of amplified Tony’s remarks to Baccala about
you know “you don’t know its happened” or “you won’t know it happened
when it hits you”. That’s about it.”
mr.rapidan
2009-02-10 18:47:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
Andrew, I have to disagree, and Sopranos creator David Chase went on
record that Tony did not die in that scene.
But you could say that Chase if just f'in with us, here - of course he
didn't die in *that* scene - that scene ended before whatever happened
or didn't happen happened or didn't happen. You know?

Anyway, I hope people don't really debate this, it was left open ended
on purpose, of course, and we're free to fill in our own ending, or
continuing, or whatever the case may be.

The story I take with me is that it's business as usual - and that's
bad enough. Tony the mobster, Tony the bumbling family man, the
children who, if they haven't happily accepted their family's
position, are at most making a show of holding their noses while they
enjoy the spoils, and Carmela who occasionally sticks her toes into
the philosophical issues of building her family on the blood of
others, but who's mostly happy as long as she gets to indulge whatever
whim comes along this week and as long as Tony isn't fucking another
woman on their front lawn. I don't take the threatening final setup
as literally as some - it was just emphasizing that this is Tony's
life every minute. And that they've all bought into the life, whether
with complete knowledge, or not.
j***@johndoherty.com
2009-02-10 21:28:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by mr.rapidan
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
Andrew, I have to disagree, and Sopranos creator David Chase went on
record that Tony did not die in that scene.
But you could say that Chase if just f'in with us, here - of course he
didn't die in *that* scene - that scene ended before whatever happened
or didn't happen happened or didn't happen.  You know?
Yes & no.

He gave the audience the ending it wanted-- he just left them to color
it in & finish it. I think it was brilliant, because he preserves the
option of a sequel movie, in case he & Gandolfini get bored in the
future, so he covered his ass commercially. But it's also brilliant in
terms of Giving the People What They Want.

For the % that strongly felt that Tony should die, he left enough in
there; for those who thought he would not, well, where is the <proof>
he died?

It's all supposition. But it's clear in this interview with the Daily
News writer that Chase is copping to the fact that he, the author of
it all, thinks Tony lived. The guy wrote as much, and said that's what
Chase was telling us.
Don't you think Chase would correct this if the guy who he chose to
speak with got it all wrong, since his very point in calling the guy
was to correct folks assumptions about the ending?
Post by mr.rapidan
Anyway, I hope people don't really debate this, it was left open ended
on purpose, of course, and we're free to fill in our own ending, or
continuing, or whatever the case may be.
You're free to make up your mind, that is, until you read what the
author thought ;-)
Post by mr.rapidan
The story I take with me is that it's business as usual - and that's
bad enough.  Tony the mobster, Tony the bumbling family man, the
children who, if they haven't happily accepted their family's
position, are at most making a show of holding their noses while they
enjoy the spoils, and Carmela who occasionally sticks her toes into
the philosophical issues of building her family on the blood of
others, but who's mostly happy as long as she gets to indulge whatever
whim comes along this week and as long as Tony isn't fucking another
woman on their front lawn.  I don't take the threatening final setup
as literally as some - it was just emphasizing that this is Tony's
life every minute.  And that they've all bought into the life, whether
with complete knowledge, or not.
I concur.

There was an excellent episode when Carmela saw her own shrink. The
show hired an actor who was a dead wringer for Freud. And he did what
no responsible therapist would ever do: told her the unvarnished truth
that she was complicit and should leave Tony immediately if she wanted
to be a decent person.

It's like the old joke: "My doctor told me to give up wine, women and
song, so I gave up doctors".
Andrew
2009-02-10 21:42:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
It's all supposition. But it's clear in this interview with the Daily
News writer that Chase is copping to the fact that he, the author of
it all, thinks Tony lived. The guy wrote as much, and said that's what
Chase was telling us.
In no way is that made "clear" in that little snippet.
j***@johndoherty.com
2009-02-11 00:12:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
It's all supposition. But it's clear in this interview with the Daily
News writer that Chase is copping to the fact that he, the author of
it all, thinks Tony lived. The guy wrote as much, and said that's what
Chase was telling us.
In no way is that made "clear" in that little snippet.
Maybe this snippet is better:

"Breaking his silence months after the HBO mob drama ended its run, he
is offering a belated explanation for that blackout at the restaurant.
He strongly suggests that, no, Tony Soprano didn't get whacked moments
later as he munched onion rings with his family at Holsten's. And
mostly Chase wonders why so many viewers got so worked up over the
series' non-finish."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,304516,00.html

I think this is the same Daily News article, syndicated here.

Reading between the lines, Chase obviously shared his perspective with
the reporter, who puts it in reportese that he "strongly
suggests" (i.e. told me but asked me not to quote him saying it) that
Tony did not die.

How much more do you need, a phone call from Chase himself?
Andrew
2009-02-11 00:28:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
Post by Andrew
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
It's all supposition. But it's clear in this interview with the Daily
News writer that Chase is copping to the fact that he, the author of
it all, thinks Tony lived. The guy wrote as much, and said that's what
Chase was telling us.
In no way is that made "clear" in that little snippet.
"Breaking his silence months after the HBO mob drama ended its run, he
is offering a belated explanation for that blackout at the restaurant.
He strongly suggests that, no, Tony Soprano didn't get whacked moments
later as he munched onion rings with his family at Holsten's. And
mostly Chase wonders why so many viewers got so worked up over the
series' non-finish."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,304516,00.html
I think this is the same Daily News article, syndicated here.
Hmmm. Nope. It is clear here that the writer of the article thinks that,
but there is no indication that Chase made it clear that Tony did not
get killed.

In fact, the other Chase quotes that I mentioned seem to make the case
(although certainly not a "clear" or "obvious" case) that in his mind
Tony got killed.
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
Reading between the lines, Chase obviously shared his perspective with
the reporter, who puts it in reportese that he "strongly
suggests" (i.e. told me but asked me not to quote him saying it) that
Tony did not die.
Yeah. You're definitely reading a lot between the lines there.

It seems that Chase's comments in interviews since the finale have been
as open to interpretation as the final scene was.

To me, however, the final scene, the final episode and the final season
(and hell, the whole friggin' series) don't add up to this being "just
another day" in the life.
j***@johndoherty.com
2009-02-11 00:56:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Yeah. You're definitely reading a lot between the lines there.
In that when the reporter says Chase "strongly suggests" something, I
assume he's told him personally?

Yes, but I'm "reading that in" only in the sense that I've worked at
newspapers and have a couple of family members that are reporters, and
assume what I've learned about reportorial technique probably applies
in NY the way it does in Boston.

for instance, reporters will often use code phrases to say more than
they want to actually say in legal, quotable english.

A bipolar actor will be described as "mercurial"; etc.

So your take is that even though the reporter that Chase reached out
to thinks Chase did not kill Tony, it's possible that Chase meant to
imply he killed Tony, but the writer just got it wrong?! Huh?

And if he did, Chase would not call the guy back and correct the wrong
impression?
Post by Andrew
It seems that Chase's comments in interviews since the finale have been
as open to interpretation as the final scene was.
I don't see that from the Belzer & other comments. In fact, Silvio
"doesn't see it coming" when the Torch got hit, but Silvio lived
through that encounter, where he didn't see it coming. So, how does
that connect to Baccala's boat trip observation, except that Baccala
himself doesn't see it coming?
Post by Andrew
To me, however, the final scene, the final episode and the final season
(and hell, the whole friggin' series) don't add up to this being "just
another day" in the life.
I think that's the point: this desperate twitchy future is "winning"
in mob life. Even though the bullet could come at any time, this does
not mean it definitely did.

I think the end was kind of "meta", like the show itself. By allowing
us to be seduced by the glamour of mob life, he's made us complicit in
Tony's crimes, in an odd way.

The ending follows that arc, where we are left hanging, (like Tony)
waiting for the gunman who does not show, which evokes Beckett.

Tony's Godot is the one who would end his play with a bang, but he's
still waiting when we switch to black.

But believe the other if you like. What's on screen leaves both
options, at least until there's a movie;-)
Andrew
2009-02-11 01:37:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
Post by Andrew
Yeah. You're definitely reading a lot between the lines there.
In that when the reporter says Chase "strongly suggests" something, I
assume he's told him personally?
Yes, but I'm "reading that in" only in the sense that I've worked at
newspapers and have a couple of family members that are reporters, and
assume what I've learned about reportorial technique probably applies
in NY the way it does in Boston.
Well, this is the Daily News we're talking about, no?

I've worked as a reporter as well and I have friends that work as
reporters and my reading into it is the idea that the reporter took what
Chase told him and used that to make the most headline-worthy story
possible. "Sopranos Creator Despises Fans" while perhaps a compelling
story is not going to grab as many headlines as "Sopranos Creator Says
Tony Lives".

Aside from all that, now that I look at it, it seems that these quotes
you are using are not originally from a Daily News article, but instead
from an interview with David Martin, who wrote that Sopranos book that
you talked about. The Daily News article that you refer to is simply
some random Entertainment writer at that paper reading that quote,
lifting the quote and inserting it into his article, complete with his
own interpretation. It is completely possible Chase never heard of
whoever wrote that article, let alone talked to him...
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
for instance, reporters will often use code phrases to say more than
they want to actually say in legal, quotable english.
A bipolar actor will be described as "mercurial"; etc.
So your take is that even though the reporter that Chase reached out
to thinks Chase did not kill Tony, it's possible that Chase meant to
imply he killed Tony, but the writer just got it wrong?! Huh?
I dunno, checking out that entire interview now for the first time, the
very next answer Chase gives is this:

"Sure. But I must say that even people who liked it misinterpreted it,
to a certain extent. This wasn't really about ''leaving the door open.''
There was nothing definite about what happened, but there was a clean
trend on view — a definite sense of what Tony and Carmela's future looks
like. Whether it happened that night or some other night doesn't really
matter."

I think the "whether *it* happened" phrase is particularly meaningful.
Read into it what you will.
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
Post by Andrew
It seems that Chase's comments in interviews since the finale have been
as open to interpretation as the final scene was.
I don't see that from the Belzer & other comments. In fact, Silvio
"doesn't see it coming" when the Torch got hit, but Silvio lived
through that encounter, where he didn't see it coming. So, how does
that connect to Baccala's boat trip observation, except that Baccala
himself doesn't see it coming?
Well, the fact that Chase says that that line specifically was "part of
the ending". Not only did Tony not see it coming, no one else did, even
the viewer.
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
Post by Andrew
To me, however, the final scene, the final episode and the final season
(and hell, the whole friggin' series) don't add up to this being "just
another day" in the life.
I think that's the point: this desperate twitchy future is "winning"
in mob life. Even though the bullet could come at any time, this does
not mean it definitely did.
But Tony wasn't twitchy at all in the final scene. He was completely
relaxed, enjoying a nice meal out with his family, picking out songs on
the jukebox, studying the menu like it were friggin' Shakespeare,
relaxed to the point of exposure.
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
I think the end was kind of "meta", like the show itself. By allowing
us to be seduced by the glamour of mob life, he's made us complicit in
Tony's crimes, in an odd way.
The ending follows that arc, where we are left hanging, (like Tony)
waiting for the gunman who does not show, which evokes Beckett.
Tony's Godot is the one who would end his play with a bang, but he's
still waiting when we switch to black.
But believe the other if you like.
Done. Like Chase says, "anybody who wants to watch it, it’s all there".
For me, that's the only interpretation that makes sense, but much like I
have my own interpretation of, say Terrapin or Wharf Rat (depending not
only on the performance but my own mindset at the time), I do see how
others could come to another conclusion....

Even if they are wrong.... ;-)
Kirk McElhearn
2009-02-11 09:26:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
"Sure. But I must say that even people who liked it misinterpreted it,
to a certain extent. This wasn't really about ''leaving the door
open.'' There was nothing definite about what happened, but there was a
clean trend on view — a definite sense of what Tony and Carmela's
future looks like. Whether it happened that night or some other night
doesn't really matter."
Yes, what their future looks like; that's the key.
Post by Andrew
I think the "whether *it* happened" phrase is particularly meaningful.
Read into it what you will.
Because it's a dream. If you look at the cut between when he's looking
outside and when he comes in, it's too brutal to be narrative. In fact,
it may all be a dream following the part when he went to bed with the
gun. Notice that he had a coat on when he went to bed, and not when he
"woke up".

Kirk
--
Read my blog, Kirkville
http://www.mcelhearn.com
mr.rapidan
2009-02-11 01:47:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
To me, however, the final scene, the final episode and the final season
(and hell, the whole friggin' series) don't add up to this being "just
another day" in the life.
I buy that, but I don't take it all the way to wipeout. The noose is
tightening. The children are no longer the innocents they were
several years ago. The four of them are content, really just this
side of smug as our view fades. They're on top, but also ripe for the
fall. The end could come soon, it could come later, or Tony and his
family could remain somehow just beyond death's reach. Like it's
always been, but the edge is sharper, everything's out in the open for
all of them.

Just my take.
Andrew
2009-02-11 02:10:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by mr.rapidan
Post by Andrew
To me, however, the final scene, the final episode and the final season
(and hell, the whole friggin' series) don't add up to this being "just
another day" in the life.
I buy that, but I don't take it all the way to wipeout. The noose is
tightening. The children are no longer the innocents they were
several years ago. The four of them are content, really just this
side of smug as our view fades. They're on top, but also ripe for the
fall. The end could come soon, it could come later, or Tony and his
family could remain somehow just beyond death's reach. Like it's
always been, but the edge is sharper, everything's out in the open for
all of them.
Just my take.
Okay, I had just about decided to let it go, but came across this site
which is pretty interesting.

http://masterofsopranos.wordpress.com/the-sopranos-definitive-explanation-of-the-end/

There is a lot of stuff here, and I haven't even begun to scratch the
surface, but I like the point about how every time the bell rings to
signal someone entering the diner, Tony looks up and then you get a Tony
POV view of who is coming in the door. This happens 4 or 5 times,
following the same pattern every time: bell rings, shot of Tony looking
up, then a Tony POV angle.

At the very end, the bell rings for Meadow to come walking through the
door, we get a shot of Tony looking up to see who is coming in the door,
and then when it switches to the POV we get the black screen.


Now, off to find proof that the Walrus is indeed Paul...
j***@johndoherty.com
2009-02-11 13:46:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Andrew
To me, however, the final scene, the final episode and the final season
(and hell, the whole friggin' series) don't add up to this being "just
another day" in the life.
I buy that, but I don't take it all the way to wipeout.  The noose is
tightening.  The children are no longer the innocents they were
several years ago.  The four of them are content, really just this
side of smug as our view fades.  They're on top, but also ripe for the
fall.  The end could come soon, it could come later, or Tony and his
family could remain somehow just beyond death's reach.  Like it's
always been, but the edge is sharper, everything's out in the open for
all of them.
Just my take.
Okay, I had just about decided to let it go, but came across this site
which is pretty interesting.
http://masterofsopranos.wordpress.com/the-sopranos-definitive-explana...
There is a lot of stuff here, and I haven't even begun to scratch the
surface, but I like the point about how every time the bell rings to
signal someone entering the diner, Tony looks up and then you get a Tony
POV view of who is coming in the door. This happens 4 or 5 times,
following the same pattern every time: bell rings, shot of Tony looking
up, then a Tony POV angle.
That sequence also sort of nodded to the ending of 20001, IMO, the way
it jumped from Observing Tony to Observing Tony, observing his life.
Post by Andrew
At the very end, the bell rings for Meadow to come walking through the
door, we get a shot of Tony looking up to see who is coming in the door,
and then when it switches to the POV we get the black screen.
But there's all this , too:


When he arrives at the diner, Little Feat is playing:

All of the good, good times were ours
In the land of milk and honey
And time, time adds its scars
Rainy days they turn to sunny ones
Livin' the life, livin' the life lovin' everyone

**suggests Tony wins, or <<thinks>> he does **

He reviews some of the titles on the jukebox:

“Only the Strong Survive”
“Those Were The Days”
“Victim of Love”
“Who Will You Run To?”

**all pertinent to the recent mob war, which Tony <<thinks>> he
survived**

and Bobby’s theme after his first hit:
“This Magic Moment”

He selects Journey singing “Don’t Stop Believin’”, and appraises the
ice cream shop clientele casually. Carmela arrives. AJ comes next,
followed by a guy in a “members only jacket “who sits at the counter.
A couple of “unidentified black males” eye the selections. “Members
Only” looks back at Tony a few times- has he recognized a local
celebrity, or is there another agenda on his mind? Meadow arrives, and
proceeds to attempt to parallel park repeatedly. Members Only jumps
up, walks up to the Soprano table and then passes them as he heads to
the bathroom. Is this a Godfather homage?

Just as Meadow reaches the front door, the music swells up:

Working hard to get my fill,
Everybody wants a thrill
Payin anything to roll the dice,
Just one more time
Some will win, some will lose
Some were born to sing the blues
Oh, the movie never ends
It goes on and on and on and on

Don't stop --

And everything-- sound and vision-- stops in mid phrase.

I can see how you can think it suggests Tony is getting too
overconfident, thinking he has survived, and perhaps his doom is
coming.

I think the constantly watching the door, and everyone in the room,
suggests he is not overconfident. He knows that "winning" this mob war
means constant twitchy vigilance, and there is a good deal of luck
involved. Death is never far away, no matter how much of a show of
"normality" he makes for the wife and kids.

Ask the families of Carmine Sr., Johnny Sac, Jackie Aprile, Phil,
etc.

Tony himself repeatedly told the therapist that "there's only two ways
for a guy like me to end up -- in the joint or dead".

In that context, what is the advantage of Chase not giving us the
fiery ending? Chase has built in the possibility of death and the
possibility of Tony surviving to see another day.

Obviously, there are more commercial options by not ending with Tony
dying in a hail of bullets, but <<what is Chase's narrative advantage
by suggesting, but not showing, Tony's death>>?

After all, one of the themes of the show was that life is cheap in the
mob, and today's leader is tomorrow's wake (remember all the piggies
elbowing each other out of the way for the roast pork at Bobby's
funeral in this episode?).

How is an ambiguous ending any different, and in fact, ultimately,
suggesting that he does not die, but in fact lives with ever greater
odds stacked against him?

If Chase wants us to think he died, why not show us this?
Kirk McElhearn
2009-02-11 13:51:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
How is an ambiguous ending any different, and in fact, ultimately,
suggesting that he does not die, but in fact lives with ever greater
odds stacked against him?
If Chase wants us to think he died, why not show us this?
Exactly.

Kirk
--
Read my blog, Kirkville
http://www.mcelhearn.com
Kirk McElhearn
2009-02-11 09:24:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
"Breaking his silence months after the HBO mob drama ended its run, he
is offering a belated explanation for that blackout at the restaurant.
He strongly suggests that, no, Tony Soprano didn't get whacked moments
later as he munched onion rings with his family at Holsten's. And
mostly Chase wonders why so many viewers got so worked up over the
series' non-finish."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,304516,00.html
I think this is the same Daily News article, syndicated here.
Hmmm. Nope. It is clear here that the writer of the article thinks
that, but there is no indication that Chase made it clear that Tony did
not get killed.
In fact, the other Chase quotes that I mentioned seem to make the case
(although certainly not a "clear" or "obvious" case) that in his mind
Tony got killed.
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
Reading between the lines, Chase obviously shared his perspective with
the reporter, who puts it in reportese that he "strongly
suggests" (i.e. told me but asked me not to quote him saying it) that
Tony did not die.
Yeah. You're definitely reading a lot between the lines there.
It seems that Chase's comments in interviews since the finale have been
as open to interpretation as the final scene was.
To me, however, the final scene, the final episode and the final season
(and hell, the whole friggin' series) don't add up to this being "just
another day" in the life.
It's like you believe in a conspiracy theory, and you can't accept
you're wrong.

Why people got worked up over the ending, Chase wonders? Because it
sucked; because it's a sophomoric cop-out.

Kirk
--
Read my blog, Kirkville
http://www.mcelhearn.com
Andrew
2009-02-11 18:03:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kirk McElhearn
Post by Andrew
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
"Breaking his silence months after the HBO mob drama ended its run, he
is offering a belated explanation for that blackout at the restaurant.
He strongly suggests that, no, Tony Soprano didn't get whacked moments
later as he munched onion rings with his family at Holsten's. And
mostly Chase wonders why so many viewers got so worked up over the
series' non-finish."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,304516,00.html
I think this is the same Daily News article, syndicated here.
Hmmm. Nope. It is clear here that the writer of the article thinks
that, but there is no indication that Chase made it clear that Tony
did not get killed.
In fact, the other Chase quotes that I mentioned seem to make the case
(although certainly not a "clear" or "obvious" case) that in his mind
Tony got killed.
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
Reading between the lines, Chase obviously shared his perspective with
the reporter, who puts it in reportese that he "strongly
suggests" (i.e. told me but asked me not to quote him saying it) that
Tony did not die.
Yeah. You're definitely reading a lot between the lines there.
It seems that Chase's comments in interviews since the finale have
been as open to interpretation as the final scene was.
To me, however, the final scene, the final episode and the final
season (and hell, the whole friggin' series) don't add up to this
being "just another day" in the life.
It's like you believe in a conspiracy theory, and you can't accept
you're wrong.
Why people got worked up over the ending, Chase wonders? Because it
sucked; because it's a sophomoric cop-out.
I don't think it sucked at all, and it certainly wasn't a cop-out. After
reviewing it, I don't even think it is all that ambiguous. It may be a
little subtle, but I think it is pretty clear what happened.

Bell rings, Tony looks up, cut to Tony's perspective, in walks a customer.
Bell rings, Tony looks up, cut to Tony's perspective, in walks a customer.
Bell rings, Tony looks up, cut to Tony's perspective, in walks Carmela.
Bell rings, Tony looks up, cut to Tony's perspective, in walks some
dude, and AJ is behind him.
Bell rings, Tony looks up, cut to Tony's perspective, black screen.

Following the pattern, that black screen represents the view from Tony's
perspective. That's pretty cut and dried, no?
j***@johndoherty.com
2009-02-11 20:32:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Bell rings, Tony looks up, cut to Tony's perspective, in walks a customer.
Bell rings, Tony looks up, cut to Tony's perspective, in walks a customer.
Bell rings, Tony looks up, cut to Tony's perspective, in walks Carmela.
Bell rings, Tony looks up, cut to Tony's perspective, in walks some
dude, and AJ is behind him.
Bell rings, Tony looks up, cut to Tony's perspective, black screen.
Following the pattern, that black screen represents the view from Tony's
perspective. That's pretty cut and dried, no?
No.

Cut & dried is the hit on Phil Leotardo, or Bobby or the torch-- those
were cut & dried

As for POV, the show itself contained many POVs, including Carmela's
AJ's & Meadows. Many of the scenes were things Tony never saw or knew
about. Why would the screen go black when these three

The ending of the Sopranos was deeply ambiguous, full of suggestions
as to what happened or didn't happened. Witness the 68 messages in
this thread so far, with yours being a minority opinion.

There are as many hints that life goes on as there are that Tony got
whacked by Members Only, or someone elese, or the next day, or
whatever.

As a big fan of the show and regular of the Sopranos newsgroup, if
there is one thing it ain't , it's "cut & dried". ;-)
Gladys
2009-02-11 23:23:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
As a big fan of the show and regular of the Sopranos newsgroup, if
there is one thing it ain't , it's "cut & dried". ;-)
The only thing that sucked about the last episode is that it meant that
there weren't going to be any more. The fact that people are still
talking about what it means either indicates that it was artistically
brilliant, or people need more things to do in their life. Perhaps both.

Gladys,.
3janemariefrancetessierashpool
2009-02-11 23:52:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gladys
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
As a big fan of the show and regular of the Sopranos newsgroup, if
there is one thing it ain't , it's "cut & dried". ;-)
The only thing that sucked about the last episode is that it meant that
there weren't going to be any more. The fact that people are still
talking about what it means either indicates that it was artistically
brilliant, or people need more things to do in their life. Perhaps both.
Gladys,.
I completely agree, and it certainly was artistically brilliant. And
no doubt I need to do more things with my life but I'm glad the last
season is on A&E now, I think I've only seen that once.
JimK
2009-02-10 22:49:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
Post by mr.rapidan
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
Andrew, I have to disagree, and Sopranos creator David Chase went on
record that Tony did not die in that scene.
But you could say that Chase if just f'in with us, here - of course he
didn't die in *that* scene - that scene ended before whatever happened
or didn't happen happened or didn't happen.  You know?
Yes & no.
He gave the audience the ending it wanted-- he just left them to color
it in & finish it. I think it was brilliant, because he preserves the
option of a sequel movie, in case he & Gandolfini get bored in the
future, so he covered his ass commercially. But it's also brilliant in
terms of Giving the People What They Want.
For the % that strongly felt that Tony should die, he left enough in
there; for those who thought he would not, well, where is the <proof>
he died?
It's all supposition. But it's clear in this interview with the Daily
News writer that Chase is copping to the fact that he, the author of
it all, thinks Tony lived. The guy wrote as much, and said that's what
Chase was telling us.
Don't you think Chase would correct this if the guy who he chose to
speak with got it all wrong, since his very point in calling the guy
was to correct folks assumptions about the ending?
<snip>

The storyteller makes no choice
soon you will not hear his voice
his job is to shed light
and not to master

Since the end is never told
we pay the teller off in gold
in hopes he will come back
but he cannot be bought or sold
-----------

JimK
octoad
2009-02-10 19:23:44 UTC
Permalink
<***@johndoherty.com> wrote in message news:6a3cbb9a-762f-458f-b0c2-***@v19g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...


Chase repeatedly said he did not want to do the standard arc of a
mobster's life, like Jimmy Cagney in "Public Enemy" "coming home to
Ma" in a box. Part of his point was that mob life is arbitrary, and
very evil people often get away with it for years, or forever. In
fact, it makes you a better mobster ("a good earner") to be a total
psycho like Ralph Cifaretta.

****************************************************************

Well, Ralphie's varied psychoses resulted in his head being stuffed into a
bowling bag after getting dismembered in a bathtub, so maybe he's not the
best example of a winner, but I agree with you otherwise.

That was one of my favorite episodes, seeing that freak get his after what
he did to that pathetic, braces clad stripper. That and the one where
Paulie is so riled up as he's stealing money from under the bed of his
mother's "friend" in the nursing home that he actually kills her with his
bare hands while calling her a "malignant cunt". And of course The Pine
Barrens, where Paulie transforms into Larry Fine right before our eyes.

Just such a great show.............

O
j***@johndoherty.com
2009-02-11 01:06:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
Chase repeatedly said he did not want to do the standard arc of a
mobster's life, like Jimmy Cagney in "Public Enemy" "coming home to
Ma" in a box. Part of his point was that mob life is arbitrary, and
very evil people often get away with it for years, or forever. In
fact, it makes you a better mobster ("a good earner") to be a total
psycho like Ralph Cifaretta.
****************************************************************
Well, Ralphie's varied psychoses resulted in his head being stuffed into a
bowling bag after getting dismembered in a bathtub, so maybe he's not the
best example of a winner, but I agree with you otherwise.
But the joke was Ralphie survived a hundred reasons to kill him, until
Tony figured that he has torched a stable & killed Pie Oh My for the
insurance money. There was no real legitimate beef within mob
structure for Tony to kill Ralph. Everyone kept marveling "He's a good
earner".

Murdering his goomara, the mother of a young child, because she
insulted you meant that Ralph had to apologize to Tony for
"disrespecting the Bing" because he killed his "whooah" on the
hallowed grounds of the Boss' strip club.

After that, the playing field is even again, and Tony's killing
Ralphie is an indiscretion that must be hidden from most of his crew.
Tony invokes the dead stripper Tracee & Pie Oh My together while he is
hammering Ralph's head off the kitchen tile: "She was a helpless
beautiful creature!"

But it's a definite "bad for business" move by Tony's weak side, the
one with the sheds of humanity left.
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
That was one of my favorite episodes, seeing that freak get his after what
he did to that pathetic, braces clad stripper.  
what I liked is how they whipsawed us the week before with Ralphie's
kid in the ICU because of the bow & arrow accident. Here you had the
most venal character on the show miraculously sympathetic, just before
he loses his head.
octoad
2009-02-10 03:48:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by octoad
Post by Andrew
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix).
Pretty impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right
near the top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that
list too).
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me
some time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but
I think I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
I saw it as just another day in the life; it all continues. Sure, he
could have been shot and killed, or shot and wounded, or the guy was
harmless and Tony just keeps rollin' on. I go with one of the latter two
explanations.
While it is certainly open to interpretation, I'm pretty comfortable with
the fact that Tony got whacked.
You probably never even hear it coming.
Yeah, I know.

But if they ever want to make a movie....................

O
Kirk McElhearn
2009-02-10 10:54:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by octoad
Post by Andrew
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me some
time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but I think
I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
I saw it as just another day in the life; it all continues. Sure, he could
have been shot and killed, or shot and wounded, or the guy was harmless and
Tony just keeps rollin' on. I go with one of the latter two explanations.
I thought it was an incredibly stupid ending. It tries to be arty, but
fails, and tries to leave too many things open. Compare with the epic
ending of The Wire, which leaves things open, but you know that seeing
what may happen in that final sequence has closure.

Greatest last line of a TV series too... It's all in those three words.

Kirk
--
Read my blog, Kirkville
http://www.mcelhearn.com
DanPopp
2009-02-10 03:53:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix).
Pretty impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right
near the top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that
list too).
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me
some time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but
I think I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
And, it sorta sucks after having spent the last year or so checking out
a new episode a couple of times a week with the ol' lady to now not have
any more to go through. Now what? Start over with season 1 again (I have
a feeling this show would actually reveal quite a bit more upon a second
viewing)? What other shows should I Netflix?
Why do people enjoy watching a bunch of low life scumbags? Watching
the glorification of that life is a type of voyeurism I cannot fucking
understand. I grew up in Chicago where the outfit is still a presence
and I remember going to some chicks house in high school for a party.
Her father was found in the trunk of a Cadillac (black of course) a
month later. I took the SAT test for a guy (whose Dad was a made
outfit guy) so he could go to college. (He didnt like his Dad because
he placed him in an orphanage.) I have more but it disgusts me to talk
about it.
Andrew
2009-02-10 03:56:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by DanPopp
Post by Andrew
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix).
Pretty impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right
near the top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that
list too).
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me
some time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but
I think I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
And, it sorta sucks after having spent the last year or so checking out
a new episode a couple of times a week with the ol' lady to now not have
any more to go through. Now what? Start over with season 1 again (I have
a feeling this show would actually reveal quite a bit more upon a second
viewing)? What other shows should I Netflix?
Why do people enjoy watching a bunch of low life scumbags? Watching
the glorification of that life is a type of voyeurism I cannot fucking
understand.
Glorification? You could have just written: "I've never seen the show in
question" or better yet, withheld comment.
band beyond description
2009-02-10 04:01:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by DanPopp
Post by Andrew
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix).
Pretty impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right
near the top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that
list too).
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me
some time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but
I think I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
And, it sorta sucks after having spent the last year or so checking out
a new episode a couple of times a week with the ol' lady to now not have
any more to go through. Now what? Start over with season 1 again (I have
a feeling this show would actually reveal quite a bit more upon a second
viewing)? What other shows should I Netflix?
Why do people enjoy watching a bunch of low life scumbags? Watching
the glorification of that life is a type of voyeurism I cannot fucking
understand.
Glorification? You could have just written: "I've never seen the show
in question" or better yet, withheld comment.
I think what Dan was saying is that consuming what Hollywood shovels
out -- even though its TV -- is akin to eating at McDs and investing in
Monsanto. You can call it entertainment if you like.
--
Peace,
Steve
--
"Life is the only thing worth living for."
~Will Shatter
frndthdevl
2009-02-10 04:06:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by band beyond description
I think what Dan was saying is
I think Dan is saying he has better taste than some.
DanPopp
2009-02-10 04:06:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by DanPopp
Post by Andrew
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix).
Pretty impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right
near the top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that
list too).
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me
some time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but
I think I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
And, it sorta sucks after having spent the last year or so checking out
a new episode a couple of times a week with the ol' lady to now not have
any more to go through. Now what? Start over with season 1 again (I have
a feeling this show would actually reveal quite a bit more upon a second
viewing)? What other shows should I Netflix?
Why do people enjoy watching a bunch of low life scumbags? Watching
the glorification of that life is a type of voyeurism I cannot fucking
understand.
Glorification? You could have just written: "I've never seen the show in
question" or better yet, withheld comment.
I have seen the show and it's glorified voyuerism. You missed my point.
Andrew
2009-02-10 04:09:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by DanPopp
Post by Andrew
Post by DanPopp
Post by Andrew
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix).
Pretty impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right
near the top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that
list too).
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me
some time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but
I think I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
And, it sorta sucks after having spent the last year or so checking out
a new episode a couple of times a week with the ol' lady to now not have
any more to go through. Now what? Start over with season 1 again (I have
a feeling this show would actually reveal quite a bit more upon a second
viewing)? What other shows should I Netflix?
Why do people enjoy watching a bunch of low life scumbags? Watching
the glorification of that life is a type of voyeurism I cannot fucking
understand.
Glorification? You could have just written: "I've never seen the show in
question" or better yet, withheld comment.
I have seen the show and it's glorified voyuerism. You missed my point.
Yes. I suppose so. Much like every show, play, poem or song about
fictional characters is voyeurism.

Like Wharf Rat. Why would people enjoy hearing a song about a bunch of
low life scumbags? Listening to the glorification of that life is a type
of voyeurism I cannot fucking understand.
DanPopp
2009-02-10 04:21:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by DanPopp
Post by Andrew
Post by DanPopp
Post by Andrew
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix).
Pretty impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right
near the top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that
list too).
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me
some time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but
I think I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
And, it sorta sucks after having spent the last year or so checking out
a new episode a couple of times a week with the ol' lady to now not have
any more to go through. Now what? Start over with season 1 again (I have
a feeling this show would actually reveal quite a bit more upon a second
viewing)? What other shows should I Netflix?
Why do people enjoy watching a bunch of low life scumbags? Watching
the glorification of that life is a type of voyeurism I cannot fucking
understand.
Glorification? You could have just written: "I've never seen the show in
question" or better yet, withheld comment.
I have seen the show and it's glorified voyuerism. You missed my point.
Yes. I suppose so. Much like every show, play, poem or song about
fictional characters is voyeurism.
Like Wharf Rat. Why would people enjoy hearing a song about a bunch of
low life scumbags? Listening to the glorification of that life is a type
of voyeurism I cannot fucking understand.
I have a friend who is now living in a shelter in the Mission. I feel
so sorry for that man that he reminds me of Wharf Rat. Comparing that
to folks who enjoy breaking guys legs is so far off the mark that I
wonder what you're thinking. I will not go on as this is a waste of
time. So, stranger to stranger, let's shake hands.
Andrew
2009-02-10 05:04:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by DanPopp
Post by Andrew
Post by DanPopp
Post by Andrew
Post by DanPopp
Post by Andrew
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix).
Pretty impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right
near the top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that
list too).
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me
some time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but
I think I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
And, it sorta sucks after having spent the last year or so checking out
a new episode a couple of times a week with the ol' lady to now not have
any more to go through. Now what? Start over with season 1 again (I have
a feeling this show would actually reveal quite a bit more upon a second
viewing)? What other shows should I Netflix?
Why do people enjoy watching a bunch of low life scumbags? Watching
the glorification of that life is a type of voyeurism I cannot fucking
understand.
Glorification? You could have just written: "I've never seen the show in
question" or better yet, withheld comment.
I have seen the show and it's glorified voyuerism. You missed my point.
Yes. I suppose so. Much like every show, play, poem or song about
fictional characters is voyeurism.
Like Wharf Rat. Why would people enjoy hearing a song about a bunch of
low life scumbags? Listening to the glorification of that life is a type
of voyeurism I cannot fucking understand.
I have a friend who is now living in a shelter in the Mission. I feel
so sorry for that man that he reminds me of Wharf Rat. Comparing that
to folks who enjoy breaking guys legs is so far off the mark that I
wonder what you're thinking. I will not go on as this is a waste of
time.
The comparison is between two stories about fictional characters. Wharf
Rat doesn't glorify that life anymore than Jack Straw glorifies that
life anymore than Sopranos glorifies that life. There are plenty of
stories about loathsome people that don't have to be seen as
endorsements of the lifestyle.

The mobsters in The Sopranos are generally portrayed as unintelligent,
amoral, lying, backstabbing, violent thugs who all wind up either dead
or in prison. If that is a glorification, I would certainly hate to see
a negative portrayal.
j***@gmail.com
2009-02-10 05:23:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by DanPopp
Post by Andrew
Post by DanPopp
Post by Andrew
Post by DanPopp
Post by Andrew
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix).
Pretty impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right
near the top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that
list too).
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me
some time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but
I think I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
And, it sorta sucks after having spent the last year or so checking out
a new episode a couple of times a week with the ol' lady to now not have
any more to go through. Now what? Start over with season 1 again (I have
a feeling this show would actually reveal quite a bit more upon a second
viewing)? What other shows should I Netflix?
Why do people enjoy watching a bunch of low life scumbags? Watching
the glorification of that life is a type of voyeurism I cannot fucking
understand.
Glorification? You could have just written: "I've never seen the show in
question" or better yet, withheld comment.
I have seen the show and it's glorified voyuerism. You missed my point.
Yes. I suppose so. Much like every show, play, poem or song about
fictional characters is voyeurism.
Like Wharf Rat. Why would people enjoy hearing a song about a bunch of
low life scumbags? Listening to the glorification of that life is a type
of voyeurism I cannot fucking understand.
I have a friend who is now living in a shelter in the Mission. I feel
so sorry for that man that he reminds me of Wharf Rat. Comparing that
to folks who enjoy breaking guys legs is so far off the mark that I
wonder what you're thinking. I will not go on as this is a waste of
time.
The comparison is between two stories about fictional characters. Wharf
Rat doesn't glorify that life anymore than Jack Straw glorifies that
life anymore than Sopranos glorifies that life. There are plenty of
stories about loathsome people that don't have to be seen as
endorsements of the lifestyle.
The mobsters in The Sopranos are generally portrayed as unintelligent,
amoral, lying, backstabbing, violent thugs who all wind up either dead
or in prison. If that is a glorification, I would certainly hate to see
a negative portrayal.
Poor guy must hate Marlon Brando. Making all that money off "The
Godfather." And Lee Marvin, who got such a career boost out of playing
the amoral and violent Liberty Valence. And don't get me started on
how he must loathe Bela Lugosi...
Kirk McElhearn
2009-02-10 10:56:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
The mobsters in The Sopranos are generally portrayed as unintelligent,
amoral, lying, backstabbing, violent thugs who all wind up either dead
or in prison. If that is a glorification, I would certainly hate to see
a negative portrayal.
Kind of like Shakespeare...

Kirk
--
Read my blog, Kirkville
http://www.mcelhearn.com
mr.rapidan
2009-02-10 04:39:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by DanPopp
Post by Andrew
Post by DanPopp
Post by Andrew
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix).
Pretty impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right
near the top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that
list too).
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me
some time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but
I think I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
And, it sorta sucks after having spent the last year or so checking out
a new episode a couple of times a week with the ol' lady to now not have
any more to go through. Now what? Start over with season 1 again (I have
a feeling this show would actually reveal quite a bit more upon a second
viewing)? What other shows should I Netflix?
Why do people enjoy watching a bunch of low life scumbags? Watching
the glorification of that life is a type of voyeurism I cannot fucking
understand.
Glorification? You could have just written: "I've never seen the show in
question" or better yet, withheld comment.
I have seen the show and it's glorified voyuerism. You missed my point.
Yes. I suppose so. Much like every show, play, poem or song about
fictional characters is voyeurism.
Like Wharf Rat. Why would people enjoy hearing a song about a bunch of
low life scumbags? Listening to the glorification of that life is a type
of voyeurism I cannot fucking understand.
Wait, wait, I get it! DanPopp is Paulie Walnuts. frndthdevl is
Anthony, Jr. Andrew is Uncle Junior.
octoad
2009-02-10 04:40:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by DanPopp
Post by Andrew
Post by DanPopp
Post by Andrew
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix).
Pretty impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right
near the top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that
list too).
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me
some time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but
I think I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
And, it sorta sucks after having spent the last year or so checking out
a new episode a couple of times a week with the ol' lady to now not have
any more to go through. Now what? Start over with season 1 again (I have
a feeling this show would actually reveal quite a bit more upon a second
viewing)? What other shows should I Netflix?
Why do people enjoy watching a bunch of low life scumbags? Watching
the glorification of that life is a type of voyeurism I cannot fucking
understand.
Glorification? You could have just written: "I've never seen the show in
question" or better yet, withheld comment.
I have seen the show and it's glorified voyuerism. You missed my point.
Yes. I suppose so. Much like every show, play, poem or song about
fictional characters is voyeurism.
Like Wharf Rat. Why would people enjoy hearing a song about a bunch of low
life scumbags? Listening to the glorification of that life is a type of
voyeurism I cannot fucking understand.
That song appalls me. Why anyone wants to hear about some wino is beyond
me. Jack Straw? Don't even get me started.

O
octoad
2009-02-10 04:39:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by DanPopp
Post by Andrew
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix).
Pretty impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right
near the top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that
list too).
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me
some time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but
I think I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
And, it sorta sucks after having spent the last year or so checking out
a new episode a couple of times a week with the ol' lady to now not have
any more to go through. Now what? Start over with season 1 again (I have
a feeling this show would actually reveal quite a bit more upon a second
viewing)? What other shows should I Netflix?
Why do people enjoy watching a bunch of low life scumbags? Watching
the glorification of that life is a type of voyeurism I cannot fucking
understand.
Glorification? You could have just written: "I've never seen the show in
question" or better yet, withheld comment.
I have seen the show and it's glorified voyuerism. You missed my point.

**********************************************************************

People love outlaws. Living outside societal norms, taking crazy risks,
dissing the man, taking what you want without thought as to the consequences
are things most people never have the guts or the lack of morals to do
themselves. From Robin Hood to Jesse James to Tony Soprano, people will
always be fascinated by outlaws. And of course there ARE always
consequences in the end, making us normal folk feel correct about our moral
choices in the end.

Sheesh.

O



O
mr.rapidan
2009-02-10 04:42:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by DanPopp
Post by Andrew
Post by DanPopp
Post by Andrew
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix).
Pretty impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right
near the top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that
list too).
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me
some time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but
I think I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
And, it sorta sucks after having spent the last year or so checking out
a new episode a couple of times a week with the ol' lady to now not have
any more to go through. Now what? Start over with season 1 again (I have
a feeling this show would actually reveal quite a bit more upon a second
viewing)? What other shows should I Netflix?
Why do people enjoy watching a bunch of low life scumbags? Watching
the glorification of that life is a type of voyeurism I cannot fucking
understand.
Glorification? You could have just written: "I've never seen the show in
question" or better yet, withheld comment.
I have seen the show and it's glorified voyuerism. You missed my point.
**********************************************************************
People love outlaws.   Living outside societal norms, taking crazy risks,
dissing the man, taking what you want without thought as to the consequences
are things most people never have the guts or the lack of morals to do
themselves.  From Robin Hood to Jesse James to Tony Soprano, people will
always be fascinated by outlaws.  And of course there ARE always
consequences in the end, making us normal folk feel correct about our moral
choices in the end.
Sheesh.
O
O
Dr. Melfi!

Man, you guys are good. This shit almost went over my head!
j***@johndoherty.com
2009-02-10 18:30:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by DanPopp
Why do people enjoy watching a bunch of low life scumbags? Watching
the glorification of that life is a type of voyeurism I cannot fucking
understand.
You are entitled to your opinion, and ultimately this seems to be a
question of taste.


Certainly many mob wannabes saw the Sopranos as a glorification of the
whole culture. Women found the fat bald Tony mysteriously attrative,
because he could solve most any problem immediately, by force or
graft. And a lot of men tuned in to see the show, secretly as
wannabes.

But for the intelligent viewer, it never glorified. What happened to
all the wannabes they put into the show? Chip & Dale, Jackie Jr. Davie
Catino with the gambling problem, or just poor old Artie Bucco , who
was eternally playing Charlie Brown to Tony's Lucy?

Everyone who got near the mob got consumed or ruined by them.

Tony's ultimate "winning" is a life where he constantly looks over
his shoulder for the guy that might kill him in front of his wife and
kids.

He dreams of hell and damnation, and has no real friends at all.

You think that glorifies the mob?
j***@gmail.com
2009-02-10 04:08:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix).
Pretty impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right
near the top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that
list too).
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me
some time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but
I think I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
And, it sorta sucks after having spent the last year or so checking out
a new episode a couple of times a week with the ol' lady to now not have
any more to go through. Now what? Start over with season 1 again (I have
a feeling this show would actually reveal quite a bit more upon a second
viewing)? What other shows should I Netflix?
Generation Kill. HBO serialization of the book, by a Rolling Stone
reporter embedded with the 3rd Marine Recon Company. These guys were
the among the first into Iraq when the invasion started and were often
40 miles or more ahead of the main invasion force. They were the
"tippety-tip of the spear", as the company commander puts it.
The HBO series follows the book pretty faithfully and shows what a
total cluster-fuck it was and what it looked like from the grunts
POV.

For a single nights viewing, check out "Man On A Wire", about the guy
(and his helpers) who pulled off the amazing wire-walk between the
World Trade Center towers in 1974. You're gonna want a seat belt and a
parachute to watch some of the footage.
j***@gmail.com
2009-02-10 05:24:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@gmail.com
Post by Andrew
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix).
Pretty impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right
near the top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that
list too).
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me
some time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but
I think I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
And, it sorta sucks after having spent the last year or so checking out
a new episode a couple of times a week with the ol' lady to now not have
any more to go through. Now what? Start over with season 1 again (I have
a feeling this show would actually reveal quite a bit more upon a second
viewing)? What other shows should I Netflix?
Generation Kill. HBO serialization of the book, by a Rolling Stone
reporter embedded with the 3rd Marine Recon Company. These guys were
the among the first into Iraq when the invasion started and were often
40 miles or more ahead of the main invasion force. They were the
"tippety-tip of the spear", as the company commander puts it.
The HBO series follows the book pretty faithfully and shows what a
total cluster-fuck it was and what it looked like from the grunts
POV.
For a single nights viewing, check out "Man On A Wire", about the guy
(and his helpers) who pulled off the amazing wire-walk between the
World Trade Center towers in 1974. You're gonna want a seat belt and a
parachute to watch some of the footage.
And for some musical laughs, check out the first season of Flight of
the Conchords. Season two is not quite up to the first season, but
still pretty funny.
frndthdevl
2009-02-10 05:46:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@gmail.com
And for some musical laughs, check out the first season of Flight of
the Conchords. Season two is not quite up to the first season, but
who likes to rock the party?
Kirk McElhearn
2009-02-10 10:51:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
And, it sorta sucks after having spent the last year or so checking out
a new episode a couple of times a week with the ol' lady to now not
have any more to go through. Now what? Start over with season 1 again
(I have a feeling this show would actually reveal quite a bit more upon
a second viewing)? What other shows should I Netflix?
The West Wing
The Wire (good but not truly great)

Kirk
--
Read my blog, Kirkville
http://www.mcelhearn.com
mjd
2009-02-10 12:46:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix).
Pretty impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right
near the top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that
list too).
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me
some time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but
I think I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
And, it sorta sucks after having spent the last year or so checking out
a new episode a couple of times a week with the ol' lady to now not have
any more to go through. Now what? Start over with season 1 again (I have
a feeling this show would actually reveal quite a bit more upon a second
viewing)? What other shows should I Netflix?
you gotta get the season where Paulie knocks the guy out of a tree
with a shovel - you'll thank me later!
Mark Scalise
2009-02-10 15:32:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix).
Pretty impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right
near the top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that
list too).
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me
some time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but
I think I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
And, it sorta sucks after having spent the last year or so checking out
a new episode a couple of times a week with the ol' lady to now not have
any more to go through. Now what? Start over with season 1 again (I have
a feeling this show would actually reveal quite a bit more upon a second
viewing)? What other shows should I Netflix?
Millions of viewers went WHHHHAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTT?????? after that
final scene. Who knows what was really intended. I took it as a
depiction of the paranoia those guys live with, always looking over a
shoulder. Or maybe Tony got whacked, who knows.

Since series' were better in the 60s and 70s, and they're almost all
available on Netflix, check out

The Night Stalker
Emergency
The Mod Squad
Adam-12
Dragnet
SWAT
Get Smart

and don't forget Police Squad (in color!)
Andrew
2009-02-10 16:15:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Scalise
Post by Andrew
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix).
Pretty impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right
near the top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that
list too).
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me
some time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but
I think I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
And, it sorta sucks after having spent the last year or so checking out
a new episode a couple of times a week with the ol' lady to now not have
any more to go through. Now what? Start over with season 1 again (I have
a feeling this show would actually reveal quite a bit more upon a second
viewing)? What other shows should I Netflix?
Millions of viewers went WHHHHAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTT?????? after that
final scene. Who knows what was really intended. I took it as a
depiction of the paranoia those guys live with, always looking over a
shoulder. Or maybe Tony got whacked, who knows.
The thing is, Tony wasn't paranoid. He was sitting in the middle of a
diner unprotected. When the guy got up to go to the bathroom the camera
clearly showed that Tony had left himself unprotected. He spent the time
in the restaraunt more interested in the menu and the jukebox and
waiting for his family to arrive than in his surroundings. The whole
final scene to me was showing that Tony had let his guard down and
wasn't as paranoid as he should have been, and in the end that was his
downfall.
Mark Scalise
2009-02-10 16:54:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Mark Scalise
Post by Andrew
Just finished watching the Sopranos series over the weekend (probably
began watching the series about a year ago or so ago via Netflix).
Pretty impressive final season for a series that definitely ranks right
near the top of my favorite dramas ever (Deadwood is up there on that
list too).
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me
some time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but
I think I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there.
And, it sorta sucks after having spent the last year or so checking out
a new episode a couple of times a week with the ol' lady to now not have
any more to go through. Now what? Start over with season 1 again (I have
a feeling this show would actually reveal quite a bit more upon a second
viewing)? What other shows should I Netflix?
Millions of viewers went WHHHHAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTT?????? after that
final scene. Who knows what was really intended. I took it as a
depiction of the paranoia those guys live with, always looking over a
shoulder. Or maybe Tony got whacked, who knows.
The thing is, Tony wasn't paranoid. He was sitting in the middle of a
diner unprotected. When the guy got up to go to the bathroom the camera
clearly showed that Tony had left himself unprotected. He spent the time
in the restaraunt more interested in the menu and the jukebox and
waiting for his family to arrive than in his surroundings. The whole
final scene to me was showing that Tony had let his guard down and
wasn't as paranoid as he should have been, and in the end that was his
downfall.
Good points, I hadn't considered that. Even now, I get nervous when I
hear a Journey song playing . . .
j***@johndoherty.com
2009-02-10 18:36:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Anyone have any comments on that last episode? It definitely took me
some time to think over that final scene before I could process it, but
I think I've got a pretty good handle on what went down there....
rewatch the show for sure. There is nothing else like it , or anything
near as good. SFU was fun, but had a misogynist streak a mile wide,
and did foolish stuff with the characters, like trading personalities
of David & Keith from season one to two.


But as to your request for thoughts on the Sopranos, go to Google
Groups, and search the archived comments from the Sopranos group. I
participated there and used to write up a commentary & breakdown of
every episode.

HBO lists the air date of any given ep, and plug in that date & the
next 3 or four to get a flaovr of what fans were thinking.

There is a lot of chaff with your wheat, but several thoughtful
posters as well.

I will end by offering my comment on that last episode:

Sopranos #86: Made In America

We open to the iconic recurring shot of Season 6, Tony recumbent, in
the same framing as when he was crippled and bleeding on Junior’s
linoleum. This time, he’s waking in the safe house to the strains of
Vanilla Fudge. They just “keep us hangin’ on”...

Then it’s night, a blustery winter night, and Paulie and Tony are
listening to doo wop, waiting on a meeting that’s over an hour late so
far. When the car pulls up, it’s Agent Harris of the FBI. Hearing
about the concentration on terrorism, Tony says “My kid’s obsessed wid
dis shit. We keep tellin’ him he’s making a molehill outta it. Is he
right?!” Tony fishes for info about Phil’s whereabouts, but Harris is
not talking about that.

Then it’s off with Bissell for a ride “down the shore”, which is
deserted in mid winter, except for Tony’s family, on the lam in Carm’s
newly purchased house. Carm does not care for the smells of “lamming
it”.

At Bobby’s funeral, it’s all about the food, in a fitting testament to
the big guy. “Pop, they got roast pork!” Jason Gervasi tells Carlo.
Everyone is over talking and elbowing each other about food.

It falls to AJ to be the voice of conscience at this gathering. “You
people are fucked! Living in a dream!!... watching these jackoff
fantasies on TV...” Is this Chase’s “Dear John” letter to his
audience?

AJ quotes “Yeets” and is corrected in his ID by Uncle Steve.

Back at the safe house, there’s a twilight zone episode on the TV and
the envelopes are light this week . “power vacuum. They take
advantage” says Carlo. Tony has other business and does not care to
visit his hospitalized and comatose consiglieri.

Little Italy is shrinking, and Butchie emerges to talk with Phil
calling in from his “undisclosed location”. When Butchie has a pause
in the conversation, Phil rushes in with “We can’t go back! Are you
outta your fuckin’ mind?!” Butchie is thinking, maybe Phil can’t go
back... Phil promises butchie a meetin’ about his prospects, and then
feigns a bad cell connection and hangs up on him. Butchie appraise s
the cold winter night, and we notice that Little Italy has given way
to Chinatown.

Tony visits Janice, and she recalls the rude remarks about her
teenage promiscuity he made at the Monopoly game. “Bobby took it so
seriously” he says, and they both marvel. Janice is ready to
distribute Bobby’s kids as if they were a pile of loot she found;
she’ll keep Sophia, since Domenica is very invested in her older
sister. Bobby Junior? Not so much “I had therapy. I’m a good mother.
I put Ma and all her warped shit behind me”

“Good” says Tony

“Do I get any thanks for it?” she whines, contradicting her claims to
be free of Livia.

Tony suggests she invite Harpo down from Canada. Janice scowls, not
happy to hear opposing evidence of her parental skills cited, and
says he’s changed his name.

Rhiannon has a Dylan song , “It’s Alright Ma, I’m Only Bleeding”to
play for AJ:

Advertising signs that con you
Into thinking you're the one
That can do what's never been done
That can win what's never been won
Meantime life outside goes on
All around you.

AJ is enthralled, by the song and Rhiannon. As they lean in toward
romance, he says “This could be a mistake” unaware of his mistake in
parking over the leaves and starting the SUV fire. As she peels off
her blouse, their tryst is interrupted by the fireball that was his
ride. Bob Dylan’s voice slows to a slur as the CD player goes up,
just like AJ’s embrace of 60s Dylan will soon come to a stuttering
halt. “At least my gas tank was practically empty” he says, just
before the tank explodes with a roar.

As his parents scold him for his carelessness, he says it’s fine his
ride went up in smoke. “We have to break our dependence on foreign
oil”. He mumbles about taking the bus, as a life goal.

Agent Harris phones in doing his bit of “living the life” in his tryst
with a fellow agent (maybe she works Brooklyn?). He tells Tony Phil
is in Oyster Bay, Long Island.

The FBI is taping Tony’s request for a sit-down with New York from a
retired mobster, George at the Cafe Napoli . Butchie and Albie show
up for New York, with Little Carmine as a mediator and “Hair
Apparent”. When Carmine says “It’s gone too far”, even Butchie
agrees.

“Phil, I dunno... he’s changed. We’ll back off”. Tony demands they
give up Phil’s location, but Butchie “can’t go there. But you do what
you gotta do”.

Tony demands a piece of change for Janice, since her husband was
killed. Butchie sees no problem: “Come up with a number”.

As the sit-down concludes, Carmine at first gets up form the table
following the Jersey boys, but then switches to follow the New
Yorkers, a reluctant leader following his followers.

At Satriale’s Paulie does not care for the cat they picked up while on
the lam.

Janice goes to the “snakepit” to try to find some hint of where
Junior’s stash of money might be found. Uncle Pat witnesses the
“inveigling” and reports with alarm back to Tony. ”He can fucking
rot” says the nephew.

AJ is still struggling to find a bus schedule. His heart’s in the
right place, even if his butt is being chauffeured around town by mom
and dad.

Paulie’s at the Bing in the early morning hours, but Carlo has not
showed, nor has the Virgin Mary. Tony smells a rat.

Popping into Meadow’s room, Carm is surprised to find Hunter
Scangarelo. Carm is too polite to refer to her drunk driving and
getting booted from school, but once Hunter corrects her, she’s happy
to rub it in. “That was always you!”

Once she hears Hunter is in her second year of medical school, both
her chattiness and cattiness end abruptly, as she withdraws,
speechless.

The Parisis and the Sopranos are getting acquainted as potential in-
laws, and when Carm suggests Patsy needs a refill, there is some
initial discomfort in the reversal of roles of boss and service
recipient. But Tony jumps up to embrace this strange new world with
Patsy. Patsy’s wife Donna examines Carm’s china pattern bug-eyed,
like a rube in the big city.

IN a bit of guilt by association, Tony rubs the Parisis noses in the
Jason Gervasi’s arrest for ecstasy smuggling. Patrick tells of the
new trial he’s working on, “It’s got bid rigging , bag men, whores,
it’s fascinating!” Tony loses his enthusiasm for discussing legal
affairs.

At Satriale’s the cat has discovered a zen like mediation focused on
Christopher’s portrait. Tony wants Paulie to run the Cifaretto crew,
“It’s like a Chinese fire drill over there!”

Paulie receives the invite like he’s being invited to play keyboards
for the Grateful Dead. When he expresses hesitancy, Tony says, “I’m a
little miffled, but...” he’ll give him a few days to mull it over.

Little Paulie is canvassing gas stations in Oyster Bay, in a neck
brace and with a police badge for effect. He shows a picture of Phil
that , appropriately enough, also shows half of Doc Santoro, with a
rip right through his face.

When AJ announces he wants to jon the Army, Tony asks the question he
already knows the answer to: “Are you nuts?!”

Meeting AJ’s therapist, Tony can’t help but revert to sessions with
Melfi : “I could never please my mudda”. Carm rolls her eyes and has a
“here we go again” look.

Tony seeks Meadow’s input about AJ, and she informs him that “If I
hadn’t seen you dragged away all those times by the FBI, then I’d
probably be a boring suburban doctor”. He looks like he wants to
blurt, “But I am a gangster!”

Phil pulls into the Raceway and jumps out of the SUV. The sign warns
drivers to “Stop motor while being served”. Phil tells Patty that he
should get a 60 day supply of Plavix at the pharmacy, but he won’t
need it, as Walden pops one into his temple. Patty shrieks as
Belfiore pops a few more in the Shah, and jumps out of the SUV,
leaving it in park to roll away , (pilotless, like the New York mob?)
with the Leotardo infant twins in the back seat. As the SUV rolls
onward, like the baby carriage on the Odessa steps, it rolls neatly
over Phil’s dying body.
“Bye bye Pop Pop!” “POP!”

Agent Harris gets the news that the New York capo’s been capped with a
“Hooray for our side!” His case against Tony can continue as long as
Soprano’s alive.

AJ’s in a sit-down with Carm and Tony. He says the country is in
crisis. Carmela asks “What can one soldier do?” Ask Walden Belfiore.
Tony’s got a script to develop , courtesy of Daniel Baldwin. AJ’s just
the right guy to go for coffee for the team involved.

At the Bing, Tony’s lawyer Mink is giving the bad news that Tony is
facing very likely indictment, Carlo’s probably flipped, “But trials
are there to be won”. Tony almost cracks him in the head with the
ketchup bottle hearing the prognosis.

Tony finally goes to see his loyal and comatose consiglieri. At least
Gab is giving him a pedicure when T arrives-- he always was a
peacock. Little Miss Sunshine squeals in glee on the TV, her shrieks
of joy a stark contrast to Sil’s vegetative state.

Paulie is taking the sun with a reflector at Satriale’s, and he
refuses the offer of the Cifaretto crew becaus eall previous captains
of it are dead: “Richie Aprile, Ralphie MIA, Vito, Carlo and Gigi”.
Tony says fine, “I’ll put Patsy in dere”, which causes Paulie to come
around.

AJ’s leaving Carmine’s porn film offices to jump into his BMW M3,
touting it’s ecological benefit “I told them no more SUV. It gets 23
on the highway, that’s not so bad”.

Scratch your name
Into the fabric
Of this world
Before you go
The skin will tear
Under the pressure
Make it deep
So it always shows

Back on the couch at Chez Soprano, it’s all giggles and fun with the
two previous terrorism worrywarts. As “Lifeboat Party” plays on the
soundtrack, AJ and Rhiannon chuckle at the wacky antics of Karl Rove
and GW Bush. Who cares if these clowns are driving us to hell in a
bucket, as long as we’re enjoying the ride in our new BMW?

Carm meanwhile, is reviewing her latest “lifeboat”: plans for redoing
the house on the shore she was just using as her family safe house.

Tony is tidying up the yard, when he hears faintly, the call of ducks
in the distance. He has a small look of satisfaction as Carm
approaches with the consensus of Holsten’s for dinner. He says he’ll
catch up, he has to see some guys first.

When he first sees Junior in the snakepit, he regards him with his
cold dead eyes. Later, he realizes there is no “there” there, any
more for Corrado Soprano Jr. The lights are on, but nobody’s home.
Tony fishes also for the assumed Junior stash, claiming as head of the
family he will guard it (from Janice ) for Bobby’s kids. If he ever
does get it, I wonder if he’ll guard it as well as that $100K for
Marie Spadafore’s Maine house?

When he arrives at the diner, Little Feat is playing:

All of the good, good times were ours
In the land of milk and honey
And time, time adds its scars
Rainy days they turn to sunny ones
Livin' the life, livin' the life lovin' everyone


He reviews some of the titles on the jukebox:

“Only the Strong Survive”
“Those Were The Days”
“Victim of Love”
“Who Will You Run To?”

and Bobby’s theme after his first hit:
“This Magic Moment”

He selects Journey singing “Don’t Stop Believin’”, and appraises the
ice cream shop clientele casually. Carmela arrives. AJ comes next,
followed by a guy in a “members only jacket “who sits at the counter.
A couple of “unidentified black males” eye the selections. “Members
Only” looks back at Tony a few times- has he recognized a local
celebrity, or is there another agenda on his mind? Meadow arrives, and
proceeds to attempt to parallel park repeatedly. Members Only jumps
up, walks up to the Soprano table and then passes them as he heads to
the bathroom. Is this a Godfather homage?

Just as Meadow reaches the front door, the music swells up:

Working hard to get my fill,
Everybody wants a thrill
Payin anything to roll the dice,
Just one more time
Some will win, some will lose
Some were born to sing the blues
Oh, the movie never ends
It goes on and on and on and on


Don't stop --

And everything-- sound and vision-- stops in mid phrase.

The screen goes black for a very long few seconds before the credits
roll.

Did Members Only emerge with a gun in his hand? Did Tony not see it
coming?

...or was it the young kids down front, hired for their complexion as
a diversion?

Was it Colonel Mustard, in the library, with a candlestick?

Or did Tony just eat too many onion rings and have bad reflux later?

Maybe Chase’s “non ending” ending is his final (one fingered) salute
to all the people who badgered him for years about the Russian in the
Pine Barrens and any number of other loose threads.

As Bob Dylan says in “It’s Alright Ma, I’m Only bleeding”:

Although the masters make the rules
For the wise men and the fools
I got nothing, Ma, to live up to.
Gladys
2009-02-11 19:55:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Now what?
24.

Gladys.
Kirk McElhearn
2009-02-11 22:01:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Now what?
24.
It's running out of steam, though the last episode was an improvement
on the too-predictable last few episodes.

Kirk
--
Read my blog, Kirkville
http://www.mcelhearn.com
Gladys
2009-02-11 23:21:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Now what?
24.
It's running out of steam, though the last episode was an improvement on
the too-predictable last few episodes.
This season needs to be better than last season or I'll lose interest.
I'm a couple episodes behind on the tivo so please don't get specific.

But for the OP, if you have never seen 24 seasons 1-4. Get them on DVD,
and good luck peeling your ass from in front of the TV after you put in
the first disc. ;-)

Gladys.
Kirk McElhearn
2009-02-12 09:32:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gladys
Post by Kirk McElhearn
Post by Andrew
Now what?
24.
It's running out of steam, though the last episode was an improvement
on the too-predictable last few episodes.
This season needs to be better than last season or I'll lose interest.
I'm a couple episodes behind on the tivo so please don't get specific.
Yea, last season was disappointing, but this one is so-so. There's some
predictable stuff in the beginning, but it may be getting better.

Kirk
--
Read my blog, Kirkville
http://www.mcelhearn.com
j***@johndoherty.com
2009-02-12 00:02:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Now what?
24.
24's like a video game I've been through twice.

I still watch, but got disgusted the end of last season & gave up.

Top loading the wingnut politics doesn't help, with the Dad from the
70s show as a senator grilling Bauer about the constitution,
suggesting only a craven fool would worry about something like the
Constitution while Jack's busy popping slugs into the kneecaps of
suspects.

But other than that it's OK ;-)

I love Fringe lately, and Lost (also a JJ Abrams production) is
brilliant, though it'd be hard to jump in now, if not impossible.

Fringe delivers X-Files sort of wierdness with a great cast including
the Steward of Gondor from the Lord of the rings as the mad
scientist.

Plenty of weird science grossout factor, but with humor .
Kirk McElhearn
2009-02-12 09:33:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
I love Fringe lately, and Lost (also a JJ Abrams production) is
brilliant, though it'd be hard to jump in now, if not impossible.
Fringe delivers X-Files sort of wierdness with a great cast including
the Steward of Gondor from the Lord of the rings as the mad
scientist.
Plenty of weird science grossout factor, but with humor .
I watched the first 4 or 5 episodes of Fringe and gave up. X-Files
wannabe, without the good actors.

Kirk
--
Read my blog, Kirkville
http://www.mcelhearn.com
j***@johndoherty.com
2009-02-12 13:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kirk McElhearn
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
I love Fringe lately, and Lost (also a JJ Abrams production) is
brilliant, though it'd be hard to jump in now, if not impossible.
Fringe delivers X-Files sort of wierdness with a great cast including
the Steward of Gondor from the Lord of the rings as the mad
scientist.
Plenty of weird science grossout factor, but with humor .
I watched the first 4 or 5 episodes of Fringe and gave up. X-Files
wannabe, without the good actors.
Say what?!?

John Noble, (playing central character mad scientist Walter Bishop) is
one of the best actors on TV (in addition to LOTR he's been on 24,
curiously) :

http://fringewiki.fox.com/page/Dr.+Walter+Bishop?t=anon

The guy playing his son Peter & Anna Torv are fine for the other two
roles, and the cast includes veterans of The Wire, Oz and Lost.

I can see if you don't care for the goo factor, but the actors are
wellt above average TV casts, for sure.
Kirk McElhearn
2009-02-12 22:30:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
Post by Kirk McElhearn
I watched the first 4 or 5 episodes of Fringe and gave up. X-Files
wannabe, without the good actors.
Say what?!?
John Noble, (playing central character mad scientist Walter Bishop) is
one of the best actors on TV (in addition to LOTR he's been on 24,
http://fringewiki.fox.com/page/Dr.+Walter+Bishop?t=anon
The guy playing his son Peter & Anna Torv are fine for the other two
roles, and the cast includes veterans of The Wire, Oz and Lost.
I can see if you don't care for the goo factor, but the actors are
wellt above average TV casts, for sure.
The acting is too "gee-whiz". Especially the son; he's very bad. Anna
Torv always looks like she's trying to figure out how he got there. And
John Noble is just trying to figure out.

Kirk
--
Read my blog, Kirkville
http://www.mcelhearn.com
j***@johndoherty.com
2009-02-13 13:22:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kirk McElhearn
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
Post by Kirk McElhearn
I watched the first 4 or 5 episodes of Fringe and gave up. X-Files
wannabe, without the good actors.
Say what?!?
John Noble, (playing central character mad scientist Walter Bishop) is
one of the best actors on TV (in addition to LOTR he's been on 24,
http://fringewiki.fox.com/page/Dr.+Walter+Bishop?t=anon
The guy playing his son Peter & Anna Torv are fine for the other two
roles, and the cast includes veterans of The Wire, Oz and Lost.
I can see if you don't care for the goo factor, but the actors are
wellt above average TV casts, for sure.
The acting is too "gee-whiz". Especially the son; he's very bad. Anna
Torv always looks like she's trying to figure out how he got there. And
John Noble is just trying to figure out.
Well, um, it IS a show about mysterious phenomena.

Ultimately, this is probably a question of taste. But, is "figuring
stuff out" the wrong approach?

The FBI agent ought to be constantly reassessing her partnership with
this character who usually operates outside, under or around the
law.

And the Scientist, in addition to figuring out any particular science
question, istrying to figure out how to swim in the real world after
18 years in the nuthouse.

So I guess I understand, but don't share, your crit of the acting
being too "gee whiz"; but don't get the figuring out critique in the
context of the show's premise at all.
Kirk McElhearn
2009-02-13 14:59:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
Post by Kirk McElhearn
The acting is too "gee-whiz". Especially the son; he's very bad. Anna
Torv always looks like she's trying to figure out how he got there. And
John Noble is just trying to figure out.
Well, um, it IS a show about mysterious phenomena.
Ultimately, this is probably a question of taste. But, is "figuring
stuff out" the wrong approach?
The FBI agent ought to be constantly reassessing her partnership with
this character who usually operates outside, under or around the
law.
And the Scientist, in addition to figuring out any particular science
question, istrying to figure out how to swim in the real world after
18 years in the nuthouse.
So I guess I understand, but don't share, your crit of the acting
being too "gee whiz"; but don't get the figuring out critique in the
context of the show's premise at all.
I mean she looks like she simply doesn't understand what she's doing in
the show. Her acting is always looking confused - maybe that's just
here face - and that makes her look, well, weird.

Kirk
--
Read my blog, Kirkville
http://www.mcelhearn.com
j***@johndoherty.com
2009-02-14 14:53:47 UTC
Permalink
reviving this dozing thread because new info has come to me, FWIW,
over in the Sopranos group, in a thread about a possible movie, one
regular there posted this:

"The original intent was to kill Tony off in the final episode and it
was
shot that way, regardless of the bullshit propaganda you have all
heard
dribbling out of Chase's mouth or anyone in the cast.

You are correct, Chase left it open... That
decision to trim out the killing was literally made by Chase less
than 24
hours before the final episode aired, probably, as you said, J.D., to
leave
the possibility open of a movie sequel.

I know someone I grew up with who works at Silvercup Studios in Long
Island
City, where all the interior scenes for the Sopranos were filmed. He
was
also on location with the crew the day of the "secret filming" when
they
closed down Holsten's Diner for the day in Bloomfield, N.J. where that
final
scene was filmed.

Word.

end quote----

So if Johnny is to be believed, Chase originally intended to kill off
Tony, but as a potential retirement plan, left him alive, with enough
in there to assume he's killed if that's what you choose to think.

Don't be surprised though, if someday Tony lives in a sequel of some
sort.
Kirk McElhearn
2009-02-14 17:27:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
I know someone I grew up with who works at Silvercup Studios in Long
Island
City, where all the interior scenes for the Sopranos were filmed. He
was
also on location with the crew the day of the "secret filming" when
they
closed down Holsten's Diner for the day in Bloomfield, N.J. where that
final
scene was filmed.
Yes, but there's a reason why they shot him getting killed. Many shows
shoot several versions of the final scene of a season to avoid having
just one getting leaked before the season starts. 24 does this most
years, and I think Lost has done it as well several times. So merely
shooting scenes doesn't mean they were intended to be used.

Kirk
--
Read my blog, Kirkville
http://www.mcelhearn.com
Andrew
2009-02-14 18:36:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
reviving this dozing thread because new info has come to me, FWIW,
over in the Sopranos group, in a thread about a possible movie, one
"The original intent was to kill Tony off in the final episode and it
was
shot that way, regardless of the bullshit propaganda you have all
heard
dribbling out of Chase's mouth or anyone in the cast.
You are correct, Chase left it open... That
decision to trim out the killing was literally made by Chase less
than 24
hours before the final episode aired, probably, as you said, J.D., to
leave
the possibility open of a movie sequel.
I know someone I grew up with who works at Silvercup Studios in Long
Island
City, where all the interior scenes for the Sopranos were filmed. He
was
also on location with the crew the day of the "secret filming" when
they
closed down Holsten's Diner for the day in Bloomfield, N.J. where that
final
scene was filmed.
Word.
end quote----
So if Johnny is to be believed, Chase originally intended to kill off
Tony, but as a potential retirement plan, left him alive, with enough
in there to assume he's killed if that's what you choose to think.
Don't be surprised though, if someday Tony lives in a sequel of some
sort.
Everything I've read says that Chase came up with the ending at least a
year in advance and that the entire last season was building up to that
ending. He didn't decide it a day in advance or at the last second, or
even when they were shooting the scene. A year in advance.

As for a sequel, it would probably be pretty dull w/o Tony, no? ;-)
octoad
2009-02-14 20:31:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
reviving this dozing thread because new info has come to me, FWIW,
over in the Sopranos group, in a thread about a possible movie, one
"The original intent was to kill Tony off in the final episode and it
was
shot that way, regardless of the bullshit propaganda you have all
heard
dribbling out of Chase's mouth or anyone in the cast.
You are correct, Chase left it open... That
decision to trim out the killing was literally made by Chase less
than 24
hours before the final episode aired, probably, as you said, J.D., to
leave
the possibility open of a movie sequel.
I know someone I grew up with who works at Silvercup Studios in Long
Island
City, where all the interior scenes for the Sopranos were filmed. He
was
also on location with the crew the day of the "secret filming" when
they
closed down Holsten's Diner for the day in Bloomfield, N.J. where that
final
scene was filmed.
Word.
end quote----
So if Johnny is to be believed, Chase originally intended to kill off
Tony, but as a potential retirement plan, left him alive, with enough
in there to assume he's killed if that's what you choose to think.
Don't be surprised though, if someday Tony lives in a sequel of some
sort.
Everything I've read says that Chase came up with the ending at least a
year in advance and that the entire last season was building up to that
ending. He didn't decide it a day in advance or at the last second, or
even when they were shooting the scene. A year in advance.
As for a sequel, it would probably be pretty dull w/o Tony, no? ;-)
Not if they had Meadow become a mob lawyer who then became the head of the
family, secretly pulling all the strings on the street. She would of
course, as the head of the family, have to have numerous sweaty nude sex
scenes with various and sundry male peons, maybe even a Russian or two.

That wouldn't be at all boring to me.

O
j***@johndoherty.com
2009-02-14 20:38:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
So if Johnny is to be believed, Chase originally intended to kill off
Tony, but as a potential retirement plan, left him alive, with enough
in there to assume he's killed if that's what you choose to think.
Don't be surprised though, if someday Tony lives in a sequel of some
sort.
Everything I've read says that Chase came up with the ending at least a
year in advance and that the entire last season was building up to that
ending. He didn't decide it a day in advance or at the last second, or
even when they were shooting the scene. A year in advance.
As for a sequel, it would probably be pretty dull w/o Tony, no? ;-)
OK, Andrew, slower this time...


What Johnny says above does not contradict that Chase worked out the
ending a year in advance.

What he's said is that Chase shot an ending that explicitly showed
"Members Only" killing Tony, and that 24 hours before it was to air,
he re-edited it to stop just short of showing us that.

Why?

It seems pretty clear that in the end, he wanted to keep his options
open, (and Tony alive), just in case he wants to go back to that well
someday.

I guess the bigger question is : when and if he does, how will you
reconcile this with your certainty that Tony is dead?;-)
Andrew
2009-02-14 21:03:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
Post by Andrew
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
So if Johnny is to be believed, Chase originally intended to kill off
Tony, but as a potential retirement plan, left him alive, with enough
in there to assume he's killed if that's what you choose to think.
Don't be surprised though, if someday Tony lives in a sequel of some
sort.
Everything I've read says that Chase came up with the ending at least a
year in advance and that the entire last season was building up to that
ending. He didn't decide it a day in advance or at the last second, or
even when they were shooting the scene. A year in advance.
As for a sequel, it would probably be pretty dull w/o Tony, no? ;-)
OK, Andrew, slower this time...
What Johnny says above does not contradict that Chase worked out the
ending a year in advance.
What he's said is that Chase shot an ending that explicitly showed
"Members Only" killing Tony, and that 24 hours before it was to air,
he re-edited it to stop just short of showing us that.
Why?
OK, John, same speed as before.

What you posted from some random source who knew somebody who knew
somebody says that Chase had a completely different ending and at the
last hour changed it to what we now know as the ending, despite the fact
that Chase says he had the ending planned out at least a year in advance
and that the ending we see is the ending he planned for at least a year.

And, beyond that, we also know that Chase shot at least three different
endings in order to guard against leaks as to the final scene.
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
It seems pretty clear that in the end, he wanted to keep his options
open, (and Tony alive), just in case he wants to go back to that well
someday.
If he had wanted to have kept his options open and Tony alive, he
wouldn't have had, you know, Tony killed in the final scene.... hehe..
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
I guess the bigger question is : when and if he does, how will you
reconcile this with your certainty that Tony is dead?;-)
That is why I'm certain that there will not be a Sopranos sequel that
includes a living Tony Soprano...
DG
2009-02-14 21:11:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
That is why I'm certain that there will not be a Sopranos sequel that
includes a living Tony Soprano...
That is a recipe for disaster...


--

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rosepetal236/
j***@johndoherty.com
2009-02-15 13:54:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
Post by Andrew
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
So if Johnny is to be believed, Chase originally intended to kill off
Tony, but as a potential retirement plan, left him alive, with enough
in there to assume he's killed if that's what you choose to think.
Don't be surprised though, if someday Tony lives in a sequel of some
sort.
Everything I've read says that Chase came up with the ending at least a
year in advance and that the entire last season was building up to that
ending. He didn't decide it a day in advance or at the last second, or
even when they were shooting the scene. A year in advance.
As for a sequel, it would probably be pretty dull w/o Tony, no? ;-)
OK, Andrew, slower this time...
What Johnny says above does not contradict that Chase worked out the
ending a year in advance.
What he's said is that Chase shot an ending that explicitly showed
"Members Only" killing Tony, and that 24 hours before it was to air,
he re-edited it to stop just short of showing us that.
Why?
OK, John, same speed as before.
What you posted from some random source who knew somebody who knew
somebody
Correction-- not a random source: a regular of the Sopranos board, who
is as trusted about all things Soprano, as say you and I are say,
trusted about our opinion of the Grateful Dead.

That is to say, this is not a random source at all, but one who has
been quite knowledgeable, and has never shown any inclination to
mislead.

That is not the same thing as saying he is ironclad correct, but it's
a damn sight different than your cavalier characterization that I must
presume intentiaonally distorts his reputation and proximation to the
source.

I know Johnny, as I know many here on the Dead board, so he's not
random to me, or to the usenet people who have been following this
show for far longer and more intently than you.

And he is not " some random source who knew somebody who knew
somebody". He's a guy I have grown to know & trust pretty much, who
HIMSELF knows a longtime friend working for hte studio where the
interiors for the show were shot.
Post by Andrew
says that Chase had a completely different ending and at the
last hour changed it to what we now know as the ending, despite the fact
that Chase says he had the ending planned out at least a year in advance
and that the ending we see is the ending he planned for at least a year.
And, beyond that, we also know that Chase shot at least three different
endings in order to guard against leaks as to the final scene.
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
It seems pretty clear that in the end, he wanted to keep his options
open, (and Tony alive), just in case he wants to go back to that well
someday.
If he had wanted to have kept his options open and Tony alive, he
wouldn't have had, you know, Tony killed in the final scene.... hehe..
Right. And he did not. Andrew, you've convinced me that you are sure
Tony died. I get that much. But you have not convinced me, or if ther
is anyone else reading this, that that actually happened in Chase's
narrative intent as displayed on the discs or the show that aired.

In the end, we judge the artist by the painting on the wall. And that
painting left Tony very much alive. Anything else is speculation--
even if you think yours and your sources have the best speculation.

Why Chase did it is secondary, but Johnny's info suggests maybe his
accountant or agent told him there was no percentage in cementing that
well off forever.

So he left it ambiguous enough to bring Tony back, if his bank account
and lack of other material suggest he needs to.
Post by Andrew
Post by j***@johndoherty.com
I guess the bigger question is : when and if he does, how will you
reconcile this with your certainty that Tony is dead?;-)
That is why I'm certain that there will not be a Sopranos sequel that
includes a living Tony Soprano...
Marvin Gaye advised that we believe "half of what you see, and none of
what you hear".

You have reversed this proposition to believe 100% of what you have
not seen, with a certainty as if you had.

So, congratulations on your certainty, I guess. It must be nice;-)
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