Okay,
Let's get a few things straight at the expense of fun that can be had by
flag waving and finger pointing......
"Everybody's Gonna Be Happy" <***@crestviewcable.com> wrote in message news:C7NFe.77$***@eagle.america.net...
Regarding the Unionist Terror Groups....
Post by Everybody's Gonna Be HappyNo one here is stupid enough to have defended them. We have a poster who
is defending the IRA. It kind of goes without saying that anyone, be they
Catholic or Protestant, that engages in terrorism is scum. Loyalist
terrorists are scum.
Agree with what you're saying here, but I didn't imply defense of the Orange
by anyone here, just stating that it goes both ways.
I said....
Post by Everybody's Gonna Be HappyPost by Tam OShanterLot of mention about Catholics, but none about the Prods...
EBGH said.....
Post by Everybody's Gonna Be Happy"Prods". Try "people". Is a non belief in the trinity really worth all
of this hate? Are these violent Catholics THAT religious?
Okay, here we get off track.
The use of the term "prods" wasn't meant to be slanderous. I don't think
religious orientation has much to do with the use of some slang.
Sorry if it offended.
I know the point of your message is the denunciation of terrorist groups,
however, and with all due respect as I enjoy your opinions, some correction
about the nature of protestantism is required.
The three fundamental doctrines of Protestantism are the absolute supremacy
of (1) the Word, and of (2) the grace of Christ, and (3) the general
priesthood of believers.
Basically, while Catholics are encoraged to petition for grace through
invocations of saints, the Virgin Mary and Catholic doctrine put forth by
Church leaders, protestants believe in a more direct, one on one
relationship with God (the general priesthood of believers.).
Sorry, but this has nothing to do with a belief in the trinity as you have
stated.
Post by Everybody's Gonna Be HappyThe "Prods" (or people who don't believe in the trinity) that engage in
street violence (and they too are as tiny a band as the thugs of the IRA)
are regularly and roundly condemned for their violence by the Democratic
and Ulster Unionist Parties.
As are the IRA splinter groups responsible for recent terror attacks
condemmed by Sinn Fein.
Should indignation expressed by a political party really have any bearing
on who is more in the right or more in the wrong?
Is there a right or wrong?
I don't think we want to play a game of "My terrorist group is better than
yours".
Both sides are equally vile.
Consider if you will....
"Accoring to the State Department Patterns of Global Terrorism 2003 Report,
the UDA/UFF (loyalist group) has evolved into a criminal organization
involved in drug trafficking and other moneymaking criminal activities"
This group is more noble than the IRA because of a politicians
condemnations?
If I kill folks, but denounce the act of killing, that doesn't make me any
less of a killer.
Post by Everybody's Gonna Be HappyRecently, some of the more extremist hate filled IRA-like "Prods" have
turned on the loyalist groups that did disarm and have begun a campaign of
revenge and violence against them. Sort of a one-sided terrorist civil war
on the Protestant side
So some protestant groups are worse than others.....
But all Catholics and supporters of Sin Fein are monsters?
That's pretty unfair.
Look into the fissure currently exisiting among Irsih republicans.
Check out the different groups, not aligned with Sinn Fein yet responsible
for a great deal of the violence attributed to "republicans" as a whole.
Do you know the difference between......
The Official IRA
The Provisional IRA or "Provos" (more slang, sorry....)
The Continuity IRA
The Real IRA
It is worth noting, again, that it may not be the mainstream republican
groups comitting violence but rather splinter groups.
Post by Everybody's Gonna Be HappyAnd they have been publicly condemned by the Protestant political parties;
all of which adhered to the peace agreement. Sinn Fein broke the peace
agreement.
Again, incorrect.
"The major paramilitary groups (the Irish Republican Army and the Combined
Loyalist Military Command) are observing cease-fires, but some splinter
groups
continue to carry out acts of violence."
On May22, 1998, voters in the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland endorsed a
peace agreement.
"Regarding the Referendum on The Peace Agreement of 1998
In the Republic of Ireland, 94.4% of those voting backed the plan
with a turnout of 56.3%.
In Northern Ireland, with the largest turnout ever of 81%
ofeligible voters, the approval rating reached 71.1%.
Exit polling suggested that Catholics voted for the accord by a margin of 96
to 4 and Protestants by a margin of 55 to 45.
David Trimble's Ulster Unionist parliamentary group was split,
with six of its 10 Members of Parliament openly opposing the agreement.
Prime
Minister Blair visited Northern Ireland three times in the three weeks
preceding the
vote to try to shore up unionist support."
And then we get to this little exchange.....
Post by Everybody's Gonna Be HappyPost by Tam OShanterIreland and the Irish people want Ulster to remain where it belongs; as
part
of Great Britain. That's because everyone knows Sinn Fein would just
turn
their guns on the Irish Republic next.
EGBH
Wow, either you're misinformed or a unionist as that's the exact same
argument they use.....
In this case "everyone" would be........
"The leaders of the "No" campaign, the Rev. Ian Paisley of the Democratic
Unionist Party
(DUP) and Robert McCartney of the U.K. Unionist Party, argued that the
agreement
would result in more violence and undermine the status of the pro-British
majority in
Northern Ireland."
Post by Everybody's Gonna Be HappyEvery poll taken in the last 10 years confirms my point.
Again, incorrect and partisan.
The majority of people in Northern Ireland, a protestant majority, do not
support unification.
The majority of citizens of The Republic Of Ireland do.
This was one of the issues recognized by the Good Friday Peace Agreement,
unless you know something the governements invloved (including the U.S.)
don't.
Post by Everybody's Gonna Be HappyBut the fact is that Sinn Fein broke the peace agreement. The Protestant
Parties did not. Sinn Fein refuses to condemn IRA violence. The
Protestant parties regularly condemn loyalist violence.
Again, incorrect.
Please look up the Real IRA and the Continuity IRA, both unaffiliated with
Sinn Fein.
Post by Everybody's Gonna Be HappyEveryone agreed to a peace agreement. Then the IRA and Sinn Fein broke
the peace agreement.
See "Continuity IRA" above.
Also consider that in 1998......
"On October 16, 1998, Northern Ireland's two major Catholic
and Protestant politicians - John Hume and David Trimble - were awarded the
Nobel peace prize for their roles in helping to conclude the agreement."
You also made the statement.....
Post by Everybody's Gonna Be HappySinn Fein is a murderous terror group that has signed several peace
agreements and then immediately broken every single one of them.......
How would the Nobel Peace Prize Award have happened if the agreement signed
in May of 1998 was broken by Sinn Fien "immediately" as you contend?
You must know something the Nobel Foundation doesn't either or have a loose
definition of immediately.
Post by Everybody's Gonna Be HappyRooting on the group that began the most recent cycle of violence is
counterproductive, to say the least.
EGBH
I agree with this last bit completely, but think that an honest, fact based
assessment of the situation should be made.
Actually, I'm sure after reading your post you have no idea of the
atrocities committed by the British military against the folk of Northern
Ireland.
Consider the involvement of the SAS (Special Air Service - British Commandos
regarded by some as being the best in the world...)
"David Bundy, in a '77 Sunday Times [London] article, summarized SAS
operations: setting off bombs that the IRA would be blamed for; planting
ammunition on suspects; carrying out 'sectarian' assassinations;
discrediting politicians deemed hostile to the government; and engaging in
'shoot-to-kill' attacks on unarmed, targeted or surrendering individuals.
Albert Baker, a British army SAS operative, went on the record. He had been
planted in the Ulster Defense Association and had personally participated in
the killing of 21 Catholics. He also admitted transporting explosives later
used in the bombing of Dublin which resulted in 2 deaths and 100 injured.
This is the tip of the iceberg of British army covert operations."
And this little jewel......
"Statistically, every house in the North of Ireland has been raided more
than twice by British military personnel. These raids are always violent to
people and property, The ratio is 10 to 1 Catholic to Protestant. Many
Catholic families have been subjected to scores of early morning military
operations as a part of "normal" life in British Occupied Ireland. "
We won't get into the Royal Ulster Constabulary as I think you understand
where I would be going with this....
Your bashing of Sinn Fein without examining the entire dynamic of the
situation is quite pedestrian.
Most of the above facts can be found in an excellent article located at:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/crs/RL30368.pdf
And another at:
http://www.inac.org/irishhistory/garrison.php
Sorry if this is more thoughtful than "You're An Idiot" but I do feel
passionately about this issue.
I also loathe the romanticization of "The Troubles" by armchair American
Irish who can't wait to drink green beer and act like idiots on St.
Patrick's day while pretending to have an understanding of what's going on.
"18th generation Irish from county Who Cares......"
There is no romance in Northern Ireland today.
I remember when a dear friend of mine showed me the burn scars on his leg
from a Molotov cocktail thrown through his window in Northern Ireland , and
I also remember I didn't ask who did it.
I was just sad.
I value the opinions you usually espouse in this forum and find you to be a
very wise soul, however I don't think you're fully aware of the facts.
Black and white is easier to grasp by most, but the truth is almost always
grey.
Take a look and let me know what you think.
Thanks for taking the time to consider this.....
B.